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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 08:54 PM Thread Starter
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DA grand master Az vs vindicare

So this only came up because i was messing around, and decided to to use Azrael for giggles.

Now I had Az in a squad of company vets, and a vindicare took a shot at Az with a shield breaker round.

Now for the rules fun.

Which of these do you think happens?

A) Az, and the squad looses said inv save

B) Az looses it but the squad keeps it

C) Az keeps it as the Helm bearer is the one giving the inv save(By raw someone should loose it for the rest of the game.)

** LOUD JARRING CHORDS **

"NOBODY expects the Deathwing Assaulting Fortress of Redemption! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Lion.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

"Now, Interrogator-Chaplain Biggles...Fetch the CUSHIONS!"

Last edited by exsulis; 08-27-11 at 11:53 PM. Reason: changed turbo penatrator to shield breaker
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 10:20 PM
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I think you mean 'shield breaker'?
I would say Azrael loses it, as he's the one being targeted.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 10:44 PM
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I would disagree as (that I know of) the rules for the lion helm is that it is carried by a watcher in the dark which it specifically state that it cannot be targeted or wounded in anyway.


What does the exact wording for the lion helm say?
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Ah yes, my bad it is the shield breaker round. Will amend that above.

The Lion Helm is listed under his war gear but carried by the helmet bearer. The untargetable part is from the 3.0 codexes. now it just says the model does not take part in the game. just moves around with Az, and everyone ignores him. Though based on that he would be untargetable.

** LOUD JARRING CHORDS **

"NOBODY expects the Deathwing Assaulting Fortress of Redemption! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Lion.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

"Now, Interrogator-Chaplain Biggles...Fetch the CUSHIONS!"
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 11:31 PM
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On the one hand the rules for shield breaker don't say anything about denying the effects of the wargear altogether, just that the individual no longer recieves the save. But then surely if Azreal is no longer effected, his wargear cannot effect the rest of his squad.

I would say RAW= Az loses his save but the other members of the squad don't
from a fluff point of rule and pure common sense, wait i'm playing warhammer....never mind as far as common sense goes.
Personally i'd say the squad lose the ability, the point in the wargear is that it punches through and kills shields, if this shield extends to the rest of the squad then it should still collapse. BUt from a pure rules standpoint the squad keep their save.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-27-11, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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It is definitely not a pretty interpretation.

** LOUD JARRING CHORDS **

"NOBODY expects the Deathwing Assaulting Fortress of Redemption! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Lion.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again."

"Now, Interrogator-Chaplain Biggles...Fetch the CUSHIONS!"
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 05:10 PM
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It is the helmet of a Primarch, carried by a being that can stop time.

Rules-wise, it's not actually carried by Azrael, so I'd say nothing happens. You can't shoot a Grot Orderly/Oiler, which are seperate models that affect the model 'carrying' them, and this is a similar situation.

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 05:16 PM
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Azreal and every model in his unit has a 4+ Invul. Shoot any particular model in the unit with a Shield breaker and they lose their Invul save.

Strange, but not a Stranger.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-29-11, 02:02 PM
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The model shot would lose the invul or the whole squad?
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 08-29-11, 02:25 PM
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It's the model shot.

As it stands, the Lion Helm is unique wargear that confers an invul save to Azreal and any unit he is with. Until something removes Azreal or the Lion Helm from play, the Invul save granted will remain- regardless if Azreal is currently able to take the save or not.

If the shield-breaker round had said something along the lines of affecting wargear that provided the invul save, you could make the case for the whole squad.

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