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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 08:42 PM Thread Starter
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Default Falling back from close combat

I recently played vs a necron having a hard time using my tyranid fodder to keep his forces locked in close combat so as not to be able to fire.

Necrons got this fancy chap with a resurrection orb (I forget his name) wich uses a
power (In the shooting phase, instead of shooting) wich causes any enemy unit
within 6" to make a morale roll or fall back. My hormogaunts failed that roll and
were falling back wich is fine, but I could not see how the squad that I had locked
in close combat were now able to fire in the same shooting phase as the fancy chap
just used his power. This didn't seem logical to me and being frustrated already
with all his teleporting out of combat, 2xrolling ressurection and nightbringer tearing
my suped up melee carni to shreads in a round I wasnt about to give up without
a rulefight.

Unfortunately I couldnt find any rules to support my side and I felt his was rather
fuzzy even if possibly better than mine so ofcourse it was done, and I was forced to
abandon his squad allowing it to reign piss on my genestealers.

Is this possible? For a squad locked in combat to fire in the same phase it was
in close combat? Seems laggy to me.


I'll also swat a couple more flies in one post as it were and do some more!
I am the fresh meat in my group (The only one who recently started as the others
have RE-started warhammer having played 40K with a older rules wich I notice
are incorrect in many cases)

Monstrous creature:
Monstrous creatures move freely in and out of close combat and cannot be
locked into close combat by non-monstrous creatures?
** Sorry if this question was blatantly obvious in the rulebook as I forgot mine
at my friends house and didn't see that rule in the locations where I googled it**

(This is as I am looking for a way to try and limit the nighbringers movement
as he was able to make too large an area impassable for my liking).

Monstrous creature VS monstrous creature:
Do they still ignore eachothers armour saves, even if they're not exactly towering
over anything at the moment? (Yes, brought on by that goddamn invouln save
from the nightbringer - Next time my bad boy carni is running like a little girl the
OTHER way)


Regards ye olde hive mind.
Thanks.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 09:49 PM
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Nightmare Shroud is not a shooting attack, even though it is used in the shooting phase, and so can hit all units in range.
If your units are not fearless then they are affected by the Nightmare Shroud. The good thing is that there can only be 1 per army.

Necrons have ways of teleporting out of CC. If this is done with a Monolith then it also allows WBB to be rolled again for models that failed it at the start of the turn.
These teleporting Necrons move in the movement phase, and so can shoot in the shooting phase of the same turn once they are no longer locked. Phase order in the turn is very important, so learn how the sequence works.

Monstrous Creatures get locked in combat exactly the same way as every other model with a WS.
Some Monstrous Creatures have special rules that let them leave combat under certain conditions. The Nightbringer and the Deceiver both have such rules, the Deceiver can leave combat in his opponents' assault phase, and the Nightbringer can force back weak units.
Monstrous Creatures ignore armour saves in CC, does not matter if it is an infantry model or a Greater Daemon, the C'tan are special and ignore all saves of any kind. The C'tan's save is an invulnerable save, so the Carnifex's attacks won't ignore it.

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Praxis
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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 10:58 PM Thread Starter
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The issue was not regarding teleporting but pushing apart a close combat fight in the shooting phase using a united not involved in the close combat in order to have said United locked in melee and hence disallowed to fire to fire in that same phase when this obviously is happening simultaneously. (Maybe you misunderstood thinking said melee was not initiated in previous rounds)

Last edited by Zerg82; 08-09-10 at 11:10 PM. Reason: Typing on shitty iPhone. Excuse the typos
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 12:14 AM
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I still don't quite understand what you mean.

If you mean the Lord using Nightmare Shroud to force a unit to fall back out of CC during the shooting phase, and then everything shooting that falling back unit, then yes: it is allowed.

The same is true for a unit that was inside a transport but was forced to disembark because the transport was destroyed from shooting. Units still to fire that turn can target the unit that had been inside the transport.

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Praxis
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 06:20 AM Thread Starter
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round 4
squad 1 (necron) is fighting squad 2 (tyranid) in an ongoing
melee initiated in round 3 (so they are locked in this round and
cannot shoot during the shooting phase).
The lord uses the power in this round (round4) and forces squad 2
to begin falling back.
Squad 1 shoots (in the same phase and round) at squad 3 (tyranid).

squad 2 is not being shot at and I agree that this squad can be shot at by other
squads, or assaulted by squad 1 (wich is a later phase) even though I think shooting
at this squad would be dodgy. the shooting phase afterall is pretty much instant
from the models perspective so using the lords power in this way strikes me more
as exploiting a fuzzy rule.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 08:28 AM
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It isn't all that fuzzy. If a unit is not locked then it can shoot.
By your theory, units that have been forced out of a transport should be immune to getting shot that turn in the same way as units that were locked in combat, but this is not the case.
It might not seem very nice, but those are the rules. Learn to use them to your advantage: you get to assault again and get all the bonuses for first turn assaults.

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Praxis
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerg82 View Post
I recently played vs a necron having a hard time using my tyranid fodder to keep his forces locked in close combat so as not to be able to fire.

Necrons got this fancy chap with a resurrection orb (I forget his name) wich uses a
power (In the shooting phase, instead of shooting) wich causes any enemy unit
within 6" to make a morale roll or fall back. My hormogaunts failed that roll and
were falling back wich is fine, but I could not see how the squad that I had locked
in close combat were now able to fire in the same shooting phase as the fancy chap
just used his power. This didn't seem logical to me and being frustrated already
with all his teleporting out of combat, 2xrolling ressurection and nightbringer tearing
my suped up melee carni to shreads in a round I wasnt about to give up without
a rulefight.

Unfortunately I couldnt find any rules to support my side and I felt his was rather
fuzzy even if possibly better than mine so ofcourse it was done, and I was forced to
abandon his squad allowing it to reign piss on my genestealers.

Is this possible? For a squad locked in combat to fire in the same phase it was
in close combat? Seems laggy to me.

Yes, it's allowed. At the time he chooses the unit to shoot, it is an eligible unit as it is no longer in hth. They're not locked in combat, they're not running, they're not gtg. They can shoot. Your mistake is thinking that all shooting is simultaneous. Only all shooting by a single UNIT is simultaneous. Every other unit is sequential. That's why I can use unit A to kill your transport and unit B to shoot the guys that bail out, because it's NOT simultaneous. Same principle here. Unit A forces them to move away. Unit B (no longer locked in combat) can now shoot them.

Follow up question to you. Were the gaunts not in Synapse? If in synapse, they're fearless, and I thought the Shroud had no effect against fearless........... Might want to check that out.

Darklove answered your other questions quite well, give the man some rep........

Don "MONDO"
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Got it.
Yeah I have been considering the shooting phase to be more or less simultanously
and I had charged out of synapse in order to prevent the squad from firing since
being in hth would buy my warriors enough time to get closer and that's why I had
no chance at beating a morale roll

Thanks
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