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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosSpaceMarineGuy View Post
@ forkbanger- I have no disagreement with the revealing roster lists after game. Keep in mind that when something says "in the same spirit" then you need to look at the previous sentence(s) and if you do then you will see the "you should" and once again it does not mean you have to or else it would say "you must."
What?

To keep things fair, you should always allow your opponent to read your force roster after a game. In the same spirit, always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicles.

That's what 'in the same spirit' means in this paragraph. Your opponent always gets to check your army list (before or after, at the agreement of players), and it should always be clear to your opponent which units are in which transport.

If you want to dick around keeping lists and tranported units super squirrel secret, it's up to you and whoever you play against; but it's not in the rulebook.
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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 10:25 PM
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You are reading it RAW. Think about it as RAI and then you will understand. Plus, what the hell is the point of transports if your opponent knows what's in them? No point at all. Logically speaking, there is no way in hell that you will know what is in your enemies transports unless they get out/in or pop through the hatch. Shoot it and find out.

I am not going to clutter up this persons thread anymore.

Last edited by ChaosSpaceMarineGuy; 08-09-10 at 10:29 PM.
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-09-10, 11:49 PM
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I see both sides of this. If I played the secrecy thing, a way to avoid blatant douchbaggary would be to get the other player, during deployment, write down and attach to each transport a piece of paper. When destroyed, take the paper and read it. It is the contents of the transport.

As to knowing the lists in advance, I would be less inclined to play against someone who hid their lists. Especially since where I play, we don't play WYSIWYG and use proxies. With WYSIWYG, secrecy, as long as you know what the separate weapons look like is not an issue as long as someone doesn't mis-write their list or attempt to cheat.

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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ok, so i got home, and after spending some time with the family, i pulled out the bible and paged through it, referencing the pages deathscythe stated. pg 94 states that you need to declare if your transports ARE transporting anyone, and if a independent character is attaching to a unit or not.
page 92 states says alot of things, but ill hit the key points of discussion.
first line, "... you SHOULD (not must) always allow your opponent to read your force roster AFTER (not before) a game. In the SAME SPIRIT (not have to), always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." blah blah blah, more fluff, "...Some players PREFER {not demand or have a right to} full disclosure (which is the norm at tournaments, for example), as they want to outmaneuver the enemy rather than spring a secret trump. Others prefer secrecy around lists, as bluffing can make the game really entertaining."

And now, here is something i need to point out, so i shall make it in bold, caps, and add some faces to it to emphasize the importance of this statement

"THE CHOICE IS YOURS!"

So, what it all boils down to.... [drum roll]



...is whether or not you wish to show off your super awesome force or if you want to be all secret squirrel.

myself, when i deploy, i dont want to see a persons list. and i dont give out my list. ill tell the guy/girl if i am exactly at X amount or under it by so many, just to let them know its kosher, but thats it. the only thing i want to know from my opponent is the army and how close they are to points. Heck, when we deploy, if i go first, ill deploy, and then turn my back while they set up, so that its a true surprise to me.



but hey, i want to shouts out to everyone who chimed in with advice. thanks for the points of views, and the info i needed. i look forward to posting my next question.
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 01:32 AM
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I like to play with secrecies. It's more fun when you don't know what's in what until either it's too late or that lucky shot that took out the powerfist armed squad of temies first turn before they even got out the deployment zone.

However I have played against many poorly written and added up lists. I have seen the list with 4 elite choices. The list where the game is set at 2,000 pts and the opponent has 2250. The list where the opponent has taken an upgrade for a unit that can't have it or a transport the unit is not entitled to. I've seen this so many times that the gaming circle I ran in had a rule that your opponent could see your list and fact check it before the game began. We even did the whole one model representing the unit riding atop the transport vehicle just so we knew which is which.
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 08:38 AM
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The rules on Embarking in vehicles means you need to note which unit is in which vehicle. As ll your units will be fully WYSIWYG on all options then there is not problem with secrecy. Keep you list as secret as you like, of course of your models are not WYSIWYG then it's only fair to remove them as casualties if you do try to use wargear they don't have.

I believe in 38,000 years time they may have invented some super technology which allows someone to see further than the eye can see. Some sort of magnifying device of some sort. I don't know maybe something held up to the eyes which magnifies distant objects? I know this is a bit of wild science fiction but I think they might have invented such devices.

Aramoro

Last edited by Aramoro; 08-10-10 at 08:41 AM.
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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaosSpaceMarineGuy View Post
You are reading it RAW. Think about it as RAI and then you will understand. Plus, what the hell is the point of transports if your opponent knows what's in them? No point at all. Logically speaking, there is no way in hell that you will know what is in your enemies transports unless they get out/in or pop through the hatch. Shoot it and find out.

I am not going to clutter up this persons thread anymore.
Ummm, no, according to discussions with the guys that wrote it (ie Jervis etal in a Games Day staff open forum discussion and over beers afterwards), he's reading it RAI. It's in there specifically to prevent cheating gits from trying to play the transport shell game, especially now that anyone can ride in anyone else's transport. Reason I asked them is I was the head rules judge at the GW Games Day Baltimore RTT, kinda needed to make sure I had things right...................

As for your no way in hell statement, I'll disagree and put my 25+ years of Intelligence experience against whatever your using to draw your conclusion. BTW, been there, done that. Exercise at Fort Hood, told the unit commander where his vehicles were, who was in them, etc etc. Combination of scouts observation, radio intercepts and arerial imagery. So yeah, it can be done.

Don "MONDO"

Last edited by don_mondo; 08-10-10 at 11:21 AM.
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-10-10, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewn_moutain View Post
ok, so i got home, and after spending some time with the family, i pulled out the bible and paged through it, referencing the pages deathscythe stated. pg 94 states that you need to declare if your transports ARE transporting anyone, and if a independent character is attaching to a unit or not.
page 92 states says alot of things, but ill hit the key points of discussion.
first line, "... you SHOULD (not must) always allow your opponent to read your force roster AFTER (not before) a game. In the SAME SPIRIT (not have to), always make clear to your opponent which squads are embarked in which transport vehicle." blah blah blah, more fluff, "...Some players PREFER {not demand or have a right to} full disclosure (which is the norm at tournaments, for example), as they want to outmaneuver the enemy rather than spring a secret trump. Others prefer secrecy around lists, as bluffing can make the game really entertaining."

And now, here is something i need to point out, so i shall make it in bold, caps, and add some faces to it to emphasize the importance of this statement

"THE CHOICE IS YOURS!"

So, what it all boils down to.... [drum roll]



...is whether or not you wish to show off your super awesome force or if you want to be all secret squirrel.

myself, when i deploy, i dont want to see a persons list. and i dont give out my list. ill tell the guy/girl if i am exactly at X amount or under it by so many, just to let them know its kosher, but thats it. the only thing i want to know from my opponent is the army and how close they are to points. Heck, when we deploy, if i go first, ill deploy, and then turn my back while they set up, so that its a true surprise to me.



but hey, i want to shouts out to everyone who chimed in with advice. thanks for the points of views, and the info i needed. i look forward to posting my next question.
Exept you left off the first part of the first line, "To keep things fair", which is what the "In the same spirit" refers to. It does not refer to the "should" or "after the game". It refers to the first part of the sentence, "To keep things fair". Kills your whole argument, doesn't it? To repeat, in the same spirit is NOT referring to after the game or any such, it's refering to "To keep things fair". And there is no wiggle room for choosing in the line regarding transports. "always make clear". No "should", no choice, just "always". So no, by the rules, there is no choice.

Don "MONDO"
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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-11-10, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
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don, 25 years? really? nice. i was at fort bragg.


hmmmmm.... i see your point don. makes sense now. thanks.


crap...id say more, but its the kids bed time....
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 08-11-10, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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alright, kids are in bed. whew...

so, don did point out to me what the "to keep things fair" part of the paragraph was in relation to, and how it affected "the spirit of". So i am man enough to say thanks for pointing that out to me.

And, to keep this from spinning around and around and around....

yes, in all fairness, open disclosure, in tournament setting, is the way to go.

yet, the last sentence of the paragraph in question quite simply says "the choice is yours". so, If im at my friends house, drinking some beers and playing the game, we will keep the rosters to ourselves and try to outwit each other. If im at the local game store, playing for fun, ill ask my opponent, since its a two way street for good sportsmanship.



Now, for my next question,

whats the deal for the bolter? whats the story behind it? If you have any knowledge about it, i threw up a post (it didnt taste well) in the fluff section...

ciao!!!
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