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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-18-10, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Default Psychic hood

Ok, first things first, i DONT want this to turn into another Doom of Malan'tai thread. I am sick to death of all the pointless arguing about him that will never come to an agreement without the FAQ.

My question is actually regarding the Psychic Hood and units embarked in a vehicle.

The wording of it says that it works on MODELS within 24". Would this include units embarked in transports?
Technically the UNIT is on the table, but the MODELS are not.
For all intents and purposes, i would always play that they DID affect embarked units, but going by RAW im thinking that perhaps they dont?...

On a side note, if the Psychic hood saying MODELS still affects embarked units, then Doom of Malan'tai saying UNITS would DEFINITELY affect them.
But yeh, as i said before, i dont want this to turn into another Doom of Malan'tai thread. I just want a ruling on the Psychic Hood, and a reason why.


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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 12:48 AM
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Honestly, there are about five or so pages worth of rules missing from the 40K rulebook. Actual rules, rather than a haphazard mixture of about three sentences of actual rules, several FAQ questions, ancient precedent, and assumption, to cover this situation isn't actually present.

The closest the rules come to covering the situation is one the FAQ answer stating that area effect psychic powers are measured from the vehicle's hull, so presumably one can measure to the hull for the psyker model in that situation. For psychic shooting attacks, the range and line of sight for shooting attacks use the fire point rather than the model, so by extension one would measure from the librarian to the fire point.

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Last edited by solkan; 03-19-10 at 12:51 AM.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 12:58 AM
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To expand on Solkan's answer;
BRB page 66:
Quote:
If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull
Psychic Hood on Page 56 of C:SM
Quote:
Declare the you'll use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24" of the librarian passes a psychic test.
By combining the two rules, and NOT inventing any rules to fill gaps:
1.) Psyker in Transport passes psychic power test.
2.) Declare you'll use the psychic hood.
3.) Check range to hull of vehicle.
4.) Proceed with Leadership roll off.

We didn't invent any rules there. We did exactly what the rules said. So by this, I can't see any reason why a psychic hood wouldn't work.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 01:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solkan View Post
Honestly, there are about five or so pages worth of rules missing from the 40K rulebook. Actual rules, rather than a haphazard mixture of about three sentences of actual rules, several FAQ questions, ancient precedent, and assumption, to cover this situation isn't actually present.

The closest the rules come to covering the situation is one the FAQ answer stating that area effect psychic powers are measured from the vehicle's hull, so presumably one can measure to the hull for the psyker model in that situation. For psychic shooting attacks, the range and line of sight for shooting attacks use the fire point rather than the model, so by extension one would measure from the librarian to the fire point.
I was actually inquiring about the situation of having a model with a Psychic Hood on the table, and trying to deny a psychic power used by an enemy from inside a transport.

For example...
Lets say there is a Chaos Sorcerer inside a Rhino, and a SM Librarian who is on foot.
The Chaos Sorcerer uses Lash of Submission on the Librarian from the fire point on the Rhino.
Will the Librarian get a chance to negate the psychic power?

Give reasoning behind the answer too, and not just a "yes" or "no".



EDIT: Sharrington, read the rule again...
"Declare the you'll use the psychic hood after an enemy model within 24" of the librarian passes a psychic test."

Technically, there is no model.



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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 01:10 AM
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I was of the understanding that the model was part of the embarked unit? Is that not true?
Do models no longer count as members of units when embarked?
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 01:16 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHarrington View Post
I was of the understanding that the model was part of the embarked unit? Is that not true?
Do models no longer count as members of units when embarked?
Huh???
He is still part of the unit.

Im not saying models as in IC's. I mean models as in PHYSICAL MODELS. You know, the ones that you put together and paint???

Disregard the whole IC thing for a second.
Lets just say that its something like a squad of Thousand Sons, and the Aspiring Champion (veteran sergeant dude, cant remember what 1K sons call them) is using a psychic power from the fire point.

The point i am trying to make is that the UNIT is still on the table, embarked inside the Rhino, but the MODELS are not.
There is a big difference.


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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 01:55 AM
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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DeathKlokk, there is no need to be rude about it.

It was an honest question. The rules are very poorly worded, and in this case has created a technicality.

I have always played that they CAN nullify psychic powers cast from a fire point, but the RAW creates confusion regarding the definition of "model" being physical or not.

Either way, if you could contribute to the thread by actually writing your opinion and reasons why, rather than posting a rude and unnecessary image, it would be greatly appreciated.


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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 03:23 AM
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Sure thing, the rulebook states that you measure range to the unit for everything but it's shooting. The distinction between model and unit in the wording of the rules is such a thin premise to base any rules argument on I thought the image appropriate.
Similar to Clinton asking for an elaboration on the word "is".

It's not that hard. The rules even say that any effects they have are measured from the hull, so you just measure it.

Sorry, the picture was my sentiment, the text was a bit much. I was out of line there. Just playing around,

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Strange, but not a Stranger.

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-19-10, 03:44 AM
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SHarrington's description of the rules fails to note that there is no clear indication that the rules actually work that way.

For the purpose of what follows, please take note that the scope is only the rules as written in the rulebook, and for the sake of discussion I am going to treat the rulebook FAQ as not existing. Please don't respond to any of this with something stupid like "You can't hurt units in transports" because the rules don't actually say (or even imply) that anywhere.

Let's say that there's a 4" long transport positioned so that half of the transport is out of range of a an ability or power or effect (such as a psychic hood, or one of the area effect psychic powers, or a 6" vehicle explosion). Let's also say that there are ten models in the transport. So pick any arbitrary number of models from in that transport and try to determine where they are and whether they are subject to the effect.

The only statement we have to use in the rules for determining whether or not any members of the unit are subject to the effect is the statement on page "If the players need to measure a range involving the embarked unit (except for its shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicle's hull." and the statement on page 66 that ranges and line of sight for models firing out of fire points are done from the access point.

If it was trivial or obvious how to determine whether any particular model is in range, even though the unit is in range, then the rulebook FAQ for using psychic powers on embarked units wouldn't have to start with the phrase "For simplicity's sake, ..."

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