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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-16-08, 06:38 PM
 
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looking looking ...now im reading reading doesnt say anything about not gaining+1 strength for my attacks

only says i can use power fist or sword not both
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-16-08, 06:43 PM
 
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So logically if you have to pick one.... You'd only get one type of benefit, no?

(and if you don't like logic, it actually says in there if you read a little harder that you can't use both types of benefits from the weapons. It wouldn't hurt to read the thread either, there's only been 4-5 posts saying the exact same thing already).

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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-16-08, 07:39 PM
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By the argument that you can stack the Scorpion Chainsword and the Powerfist then you can also stack a Force Weapon and Powerfist or how about a Powerfist and Thunderhammer! Wait I know... a Powerfist and a Nemisis Force Weapon!! Thats Str 10! Hey I want to do that with my Grey Knights! Wohoo!! What about a Lightning Claw and Nemisis Force Weapon! That would be awesome!!

Seriously tho.. no 2 weapons stack unless specifically stated that they do. Does the PowerFist or the Scorpion Chainsword say that they do? No. No where do they ever say they stack. Bottom line he can be Str 4 or Str 6. Not Str 7 or Str 8.



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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-16-08, 07:40 PM
 
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damn i was hoping to wound easily with my force weapon and +1 strength frost blade nvm.

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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 06:11 AM
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First about the Frost blade it says that it adds +1 to the user's strength. That means you must use the frost blade for the extra strength.

The Scorpion Chainsword says that it adds +1 strength to the models attacks. If he makes attacks, they are at +1 strength, and don't even try to go on about their guns being at +1 strength because it says attacks, not shots. If a guy has a Scorpion Chainsword his A abilities have +1 strength than normal.

As for pg. 46 paragraph 2. It says only 1 type of special attack can be made. So no you can't combine a force weapon and a powerfist as they are both special attacks, but the Scorpion Chainsword doesn't say that the +1 strength bonus is only for attacks made with the weapon. It just says for the models attacks. If it said "+1 strength to the users attacks", I would agree that you don't get the bonus. If it said "+1 strength to attacks made with it," I would agree that you don't get the bonus, but it just says +1 strength to models attacks. This means that the +1 strength bonus isn't for its own special attack, just the model who is equipped with it's attacks.

As for the powerfist not saying that you only double strength for it. It does specify that. It reads that it doubles the user's strength, ignoring armour saves. Which means you either get both effects (doubling of strength and ignoring armour saves) or you don't get any because again it says that it doubles the users strength, implying that you must use it for the benefit.

I agree this shouldn't give the +1 strength, but it does, and is either intended to do so, or just poor wording. Besides that, the +1 strength makes it a 7 instead of a 6, and really only makes a difference if you are fighting high toughness things like MC or vehicles. Its not like the +1 strength makes them able to kill by double strength because, its an odd number. It's not like its overpowered or anything. These guys cost about as much as a space marine for 1 more Initiative and 1 less strength and toughness. The chainsword makes them worth the points, and really how many of these strength 7 powerfists do you have to go up against anyway?

For 187 points you can have a squad of 10 of these guys with an Exarch and Scorpion's Claw, taking up one of the elites slots. I can have 10 CSM with a champ and a Powerfist for 190 points taking up one of my troops slots. You can have your +1 Initiative, I will take the extra toughness, and I can kill toughness 4 guys instantly with my Powerfist and you can't.

Ya, that strength 7 instead of 6 makes the Exarch such a hardass.....

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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 06:16 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Triumph Of Man View Post
Logical approach using common sense? I think not. But, as I said, I doubt you'll pay any heed to this and continue with your interpretations attempting to take it beyond the Nth degree anyway, so... meh. Your loss.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 08:05 AM
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Oooh look at me, I'm psychic.
I didn't ignore it. What that rule says is you can't combine the effects of 2 different attacks like powerfists and force weapons special rules. This is different because of the wording. It says +1 strength to models attacks, not +1 strength for attacks made with this weapon. See the difference? It's the difference that makes the Scorpion Claw double strength +1 if equipped with both the Scorpion Claw and Scorpion Chainsword.

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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 04:19 PM
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Is the chainsword +1 Str a special ability??? Yes
Is the powerfists double str + ignore armor a special ability??? Yes
Does it say anywhere that these effects may stack with other abilities??? NO

And the rules state that you cannot combine the special abilities of 2 weapons. Even though that weapon states "to its attacks" it does not at anywhere state that it combines with other weapons. Ergo you must choose to either take the double str ignore armor of the Powerfist or the +1 str of the chainsword. Its as simple as that.

You can go ahead and play it however you want as there certainly isnt any GW gaming police to go around and stop rules abusers but dont think that you would get away with that at any official tournament or with any person who has a decent grasp on the rules. It just wont fly.



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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobinatorect View Post
First about the Frost blade it says that it adds +1 to the user's strength. That means you must use the frost blade for the extra strength.

The Scorpion Chainsword says that it adds +1 strength to the models attacks. If he makes attacks, they are at +1 strength, and don't even try to go on about their guns being at +1 strength because it says attacks, not shots.
Except they use 'Shots' and 'Shooting Attacks' interchangeably, but let's not go there.


Quote:
If a guy has a Scorpion Chainsword his A abilities have +1 strength than normal.
And a model with a powerfist has his Strength score doubled. Except it only does that when you use it.

Just like the Scorpion Chainsword.

Quote:
As for pg. 46 paragraph 2. It says only 1 type of special attack can be made. So no you can't combine a force weapon and a powerfist as they are both special attacks, but the Scorpion Chainsword doesn't say that the +1 strength bonus is only for attacks made with the weapon.
And the powerfist doesn't say that the double strength is just for attacks made with it.

And the force weapon says nothing about actually having to use it. Just that if you score a wound you can make a psychic test and use its ability.

Quote:
It just says for the models attacks. If it said "+1 strength to the users attacks", I would agree that you don't get the bonus. If it said "+1 strength to attacks made with it," I would agree that you don't get the bonus, but it just says +1 strength to models attacks. This means that the +1 strength bonus isn't for its own special attack, just the model who is equipped with it's attacks.
Does the *weapon* grant you a bonus in the assault phase? Does it make your attacks special, in some way? Then guess what, it's a special attack. If you want to use your special +1 strength attacks you cannot combine it with the effect of another weapon.

Quote:
As for the powerfist not saying that you only double strength for it. It does specify that. It reads that it doubles the user's strength, ignoring armour saves. Which means you either get both effects (doubling of strength and ignoring armour saves) or you don't get any because again it says that it doubles the users strength, implying that you must use it for the benefit.
Alright, so it gives you double strength and allows you to ignore saves...it still never says that you actually have to hit someone with it for that to be in effect. The only thing directly tied to attacking with it is the initiative penalty.

If you want to be absurd, I can be absurd too.

Even if you are right in saying that the weapon magically bestows a bonus without being used, attacking with +1 to your strength as a result of a weapon is a Special Attack, wouldn't you say? It's an attack that does not act as normal because it was altered, in some way, by a weapon.

If you want to use your special +1 str attacks then you can't stack them with any other special attack.

You want to get into black and white rules, there it is.
Note that the rules don't specifically say 'special weapons' they say 'special close combat attacks' (Also note that here they specify 'close combat' attacks, as opposed to other kinds of attacks?)

So the model with the chainsword and the claw has more than one special close combat attack.
He has a +1 str attack that works at his full initiative, and he has a 2x str attack that ignores armor and works at I1.

He has to pick one.

The weapon doesn't say it adds a bonus to the model's strength score (like Furious Charge would), it says it adds it to his attacks, thus making a form of special attacks.

I think that's the answer right there. These attacks that have been altered by the sword are special attacks, period. No matter whether the attack is made with the sword or a magically augmented headbutt, it's an attack that was made special, it doesn't stack with other special attacks

Quote:
Ya, that strength 7 instead of 6 makes the Exarch such a hardass.....
It doesn;t matter how big or small an advantage is. If it;s against the rules it's something you should point out.

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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 02-17-08, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobinatorect View Post
These guys cost about as much as a space marine for 1 more Initiative and 1 less strength and toughness.
They also get one more attack and the ability to take an exarch that lets them infiltrate and move through cover. Their exarch also gets WS 5, very handy for fisting marines. They lack heavy/rapidfire weapons but they're usually moving every turn anyhow. Don't sell the little guys too short
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