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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
 
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Mixed Armor, Independent Characters, and Invulnerable Saves

First off, i looked through the frequently asked, didn't see it in there.

Anyways, my gaming group has been stuck on 3rd ed, and i suprised them with alot of the 4th stuff i discovered the other day. Anyways we started playing better, but we came upon some issues.

Scenario 1:
Tau Crisis suit, 2 gun drones in a squad. There is no majority (2 wounds vs 2), so the lower Toughness and Armor Save is used. Say the squad gets hit by a TL assault cannon (baal predator), all 4 shots hit, 1 rends, 2 wound, and 1 doesn't.

What happens?
a) all 3 models die, AC is double the majority toughness and qualifies for instant kill, and ignores the armor save due to the AP value.
b) both drones die and the crisis suit takes a wound, because he's toughness 4 he cannot be insta-killed by assault cannons.
c) something else.

Scenario 2:
a 3 wound hero joins a squad with 2 single wound models. the hero has a 2 up save, the single wounds have a four up. they get drilled by something ap 4.

What happens?
a) majority armor is the hero's, so they get 2+ saves but he can take off the single wound models.
b) something else.

Scenario 3:
Wolf Lord and Rune Priest on bikes (3+/4++) join a storm claw bike squad with 3 models. The majority armor is 3+/4++ (5 wounds vs 3). The bikers get shot by plasma weaponry.

What happens?
a) the whole squad gets 3+ / 4++
b) invulnerable saves are not armor saves so mixed armor does not apply. Remove the bikers per wound suffered.
c) something else.

IF the answer is b, then can I allocate a wound to a hero to use a 4++ save? I find nothing in the rule book that says I can, but I see it happen all the time. Or does something else happen?


Thanks for any clarification! Please note, if you are not like 90% sure please don't respond, accuracy is very important.
~dan
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 04:34 AM
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Majority toughness and majority armour work in different ways. Majority toughness is used for the entire unit for simplicity's sake. However, majority armour rules say that the majority armour type must be allocated wound first, and then the remaining armour types may take saves. Also, it is models, not wounds, on which majority is calculater.

So:

Scenario 1. You roll to wound using majority toughness. (EDIT: I've learnt that battlesuits have 3+, so you get a save from that one.) The drones are instant killed. That said, you use the majority toughness for rolling to wound, but you don't use it for instant kill calculations, so the suit just takes a wound.

Scenario 2. You use models, not wounds, so the majority is 4+. Sadly this means that you must take out the 4+ ones without a save before you use the 2+. (As long as they remain in the majority.) If you have three wounds on you then the last one goes to your 2+ guy.

EDIT: I was wrong about scenario three. Sorry.

Last edited by roricon; 01-24-08 at 11:19 AM.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 04:40 AM
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page 76 of the 4e rulebook has the answers you're looking for.

Scenario 1: The majority armor would be 4+ for the gun drones because you count models, not wounds. However, if there was 1 gun drone and 1 crisis suit, and you took those 3 wounds (one of which was rending), you would have to take a wound with your gun drone (no majority so worst armor type is used). You'd obviously take this as the rending hit. Then your opponent gets to nominate a model to take one of the wounds (the particular shot you get to pick, so if you get hit with a bunch of bolters and a lascannon and your opponent nominates your sergeant, you're obviously gonna make that one of the bolter shots). In our example, both remaining wounds are the same and there are no other models but the crisis suit, so it takes both (and rolls its 3+ saves. the gun drones would have rolled their 4+ saves if it wasn't rending or ap 4).

Scenario 2: There are 2 4+ armor save models and 1 2+ armor save model. Since you count models, not wounds, that means that the 4+ is the majority. The 4+ guys take the wounds first until there are more wounds then 4+ guys, and then the remaining wounds spill over onto the character until there are more wounds for him to save against than he has wounds, at which point it wraps around again to the 4+ guys.

Scenario 3: The armor saves are equal (other saves don't matter for determining this), so the owning player can nominate any of the models to take the wounds. He can either remove the non-characters because they won't get their armor save or he can chance that the characters will make their invulns.

Check out page 76, between that and the saving throws section it breaks it down. I wish they had put the chart on 76 with the saving throws though, that's just bad formatting.

Last edited by Culler; 01-24-08 at 04:43 AM.
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 05:22 AM
 
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Scenario 1: Essentially anything that would die easier dies first... The drones die and the Crisis suit takes a wound, if he has 2 wounds he still lives.

I had a guy try and pull a fast one on me. He had a lord with a 2+Inv and a Serg(basically) left. They had an equal armor save, 5+ I think(Dark Eldar). He took all the shots on his Lord and passed them all with his 2+ inv. WRONG. The Serg dies before the lord takes wounds... Unless of course I'm wrong here


Scenario 2: Majority models are the Single wound models, more models than the leader. The 4+ models take wounds before the leader does.

Scenario 3: Technically the majority is the 3 bikes, not the priest or the lord. The 3 bikers would die first. Then I think the deciding factor would be wound count on the lord and priest if their armor/saves are equal. I'm guessing the lord has 1 wound? Then he dies first.

Majority goes off of majority models before you go into saves/wound values. Rule of thumb I usually use is..... Whoever is statistically going to die first is usually the first models to be removed if they are all in one group together. There's probably an exception or two to that I can't think of at the moment, but that's pretty much how my group plays it.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 05:32 AM
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Actually once there's only the lord and the priest he can choose which to take it on (pg 76, point 4).
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 06:11 AM
 
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i believe you can allocate the wounds you want

i dont believe invunrables or wargear count towards the mean armor saves

when every i get hit by weapons fire

i go

1 on karandras
saved
another
saved
ect.. ect ect
saved

until he either takes a wound or to many then i take off memebers of squad
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 06:13 AM
 
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i always believed the player getting shot at decides whos taking the saves
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 08:01 AM
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Those were third edition rules. In fourth you have to take the majority first.

That said, most of my friends play third ed rules and I can't be bothered introducing things like that rule, target priority etc. to them, we all have codexes that came out before the 4th ed rules anyway.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Scenario 1:
Quote:
Tau Crisis suit, 2 gun drones in a squad. There is no majority (2 wounds vs 2), so the lower Toughness and Armor Save is used. Say the squad gets hit by a TL assault cannon (baal predator), all 4 shots hit, 1 rends, 2 wound, and 1 doesn't.

What happens?
a) all 3 models die, AC is double the majority toughness and qualifies for instant kill, and ignores the armor save due to the AP value.
b) both drones die and the crisis suit takes a wound, because he's toughness 4 he cannot be insta-killed by assault cannons.
c) something else.


Option C – You assign the rending hit to a drone, Lose a drone from an AC wound it cannot save against (4+Sv Vs AP4) & take a 3+ save for the suit Vs the second AC wound.

Quote:
Scenario 2:
a 3 wound hero joins a squad with 2 single wound models. the hero has a 2 up save, the single wounds have a four up. they get drilled by something ap 4.

What happens?
a) majority armor is the hero's, so they get 2+ saves but he can take off the single wound models.
b) something else.



Option B – The majority armour save rule is based on models not wounds. As such the single wound models must take the first two hits then the character would take one then the drones would take the next 2 & the character the one after that etc etc….

Quote:
Scenario 3:
Wolf Lord and Rune Priest on bikes (3+/4++) join a storm claw bike squad with 3 models. The majority armor is 3+/4++ (5 wounds vs 3). The bikers get shot by plasma weaponry.

What happens?
a) the whole squad gets 3+ / 4++
b) invulnerable saves are not armor saves so mixed armor does not apply. Remove the bikers per wound suffered.
c) something else.


IF the answer is b, then can I allocate a wound to a hero to use a 4++ save? I find nothing in the rule book that says I can, but I see it happen all the time. Or does something else happen? [/quote]

Well as the target you have several options. As your armour save is the same across the board you can assign the hits to who you want within the squad (so you can for example assign wounds to a character thus gaining an Inv save). One thing you need to remember is that the multiple-multiple wound model rule comes into effect & you cannot “spread” wounds between the characters Other than this you can remove who you want.

May is not must.

If in doubt always choose the lesser of two weevils


just freaking do it ok?
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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 01-24-08, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
 
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thanks for the clarification! I'll tell da boyz!
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