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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 10:05 PM
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Um, Creon I think you miss the point.
Your own quote says that he begins with a unit by being deployed in coherancy with them. The RAW argument says that he deploys to the table with the unit, which gives them infiltrate, that, since they have now been deployed, can no longer be used.

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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 10:17 PM
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No, I do not miss the point. I parse the rules differently than you. He does not begin the game and give infiltrate BECAUSE he was deployed within 2". It's not as if the unit is deployed then the IC. That's the part referred to by "BEGIN" the game. It is not a seperate deployment. He is part of the unit SO LONG AS he is deployed within coherency at the time of depolyment. This line is written so you don't deploy the IC on the left and the unit on the right and claim they were the same deployment.

So, as long as you deploy the unit and the IC witin coherency at the proper step, you are applying the rules correctly, in my opinion as I read them. And therefore Shrike and unit infiltrate, as they have that special rule when the game begins, and will be deployed during the infiltration step.
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-27-09, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creon View Post
MRB, pg. 48 "Characters joining &leaving units" - "Alternately, an Independent Character my begin the game already with a unit, by being deployed in coherency of them" (emphasis added)

If Shrike begins the game already in the unit, Shrike gives the unit infiltrate RAW. It is deployed during the infiltration phase.
You are reading the rule incorrectly. An IC will automatically be part of a unit if the IC is deployed in coherency, but there is nothing in the rules which causes a unit's deployment to be delayed until when the IC would be deployed.

Let's say that Shrike wants to join unit X, which doesn't have Infiltrate. According to the rules, unit X is deployed first along with all of the other non-infiltrating, non-reserved, non-arriving on first turn for Dawn of War, units. After that, Shrike is deployed in the step for deploying infiltrators, and at that point he could join the unit by being deployed in coherency. Note that at this point that unit X has failed to benefit from the infiltration ability.

The rules have no provision which enables Shrike to join the unit before it is placed on the table, and that's the sticking point which prevents the rule from working as people claim it is intended to work. As I said before, there are two opposing options, and no way of determining the intended result without laying siege to Games Workshop.

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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 12:55 AM
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i don't really see the problem of the outflank rule in this case? it just means he enters the board in coherincy of the unit he has joined. and since he has to go by the dice roll for table side he may end up on the wrong edge. i still don't see whats every1s big problem with shrike being able too, its just like putting thraka with snikkrot isnt it? a big 6 meter tall, several tonne green monster getting snikkrots special uber outflank! were theres no random chance and they come behind you.
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 01:16 AM Thread Starter
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We'll my question isn't about Outflanking, It's about Infiltrating for the soul purpose of starting 18 inches away with a bike squad.
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 02:16 AM
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I think we should all calm down, have a Tim Tam, and throw this discussion out the window.
We are never going to accomplish anything by continuing it, because we all know very well how it's played.
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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 02:35 AM
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Weather or not we know how it is play does not prevent an arse from being a rules lawyer preventing me from using Shrike to infiltrate things. I asked becuase I would like to form a "legal" counter argument other than "we know how it should work"

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 06:12 AM
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For the record, using Shrike to make a unit outflank works because the very first thing which is done when setting up reserves is to specify whether or not IC's are attached to units. So in that case, Shrike is part of the unit, the unit gets Infiltrate, and the unit gets to outflank.

The same issue does exist for Eldar armies in Karandras attaching to a unit of Striking Scorpions without Shadow Strike.

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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solkan View Post
For the record, using Shrike to make a unit outflank works because the very first thing which is done when setting up reserves is to specify whether or not IC's are attached to units. So in that case, Shrike is part of the unit, the unit gets Infiltrate, and the unit gets to outflank.

The same issue does exist for Eldar armies in Karandras attaching to a unit of Striking Scorpions without Shadow Strike.
Aah ok, well then, proceed.
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 08-28-09, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solkan View Post
For the record, using Shrike to make a unit outflank works because the very first thing which is done when setting up reserves is to specify whether or not IC's are attached to units. So in that case, Shrike is part of the unit, the unit gets Infiltrate, and the unit gets to outflank.

The same issue does exist for Eldar armies in Karandras attaching to a unit of Striking Scorpions without Shadow Strike.
The outflank I found the information for. But since you have placed the units in reserve, they are no longer able to infiltrate, as when they are placed in reserve you have to dictate how they come on the table, infiltrate is not one of the options. It states however in the reserve rules that an IC can join any unit in reserve before you dictate how that unit comes in.

In the reserves rules it states first you declare any joining IC's. Second you declare any units mounted in vehicles. Third if they have special rules you declare how they are comming in. Since by the third stage the unit Shrike has joined has gained infiltrate they can outflank. - I know all this.

I want to be able to build an argument on how he can actually infiltrate as infiltrate happens after placement, but before reserve delcarations. We all know that "it should work" but that doesn't mean anything to people who insist on RAW. Essentially it states that you deploy, declare which units are in reserve, place units that can infiltrate, then move scouts. (pg 92)

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Last edited by mrrshann618; 08-28-09 at 02:53 PM.
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