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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
. a charging unit isnt engaged at the start of combat (whenever you think that is) and so has no targetting restrictions (ie they pick freely...) instead of simply having no targets.
Where does the rulebook say that? I was under the impression that charging units in close combat follow all the same rules as any other unit. According to what you said, I could charge into a combat that is like this:

C = Charging Unit
E = Enemy unit 1
F = Enemy unit 2
A = Allied unit

C EAF

and when I get in, have it be

CEAF

and declare that my charging unit, which can target freely, targets unit F. I assume you don't mean this, and that they have to follow normal targeting rules... but this brings us back to the multiple combat rules on p41. If they follow normal targeting and require contact, why do they get to ignore the p41 rules? They would either have to follow all rules, none of the rules, or specifically list exceptions to the rules. So if you can show me where it says that charging units get to ignore all rules or at least the p41 rules, I'll agree with you that my logic for case 2 above is wrong. Otherwise, I believe that my point stands, which would also mean that your case 1 would mean that charging units would never get to attack the turn they charge.

Last edited by htmlord; 06-19-09 at 05:13 PM.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 05:41 PM
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Yes, I typed that wrong- more clearly: P41 does in no way restrict chargers, they follow the normal rules for assault from the assault section.... but thats neither here nor there and has no bearing on this debate (no-one is claiming that the attacker is affected in eny way, its the defenders and how they are affected that we're discussing).

So back on topic (and I am cringing here knowing this'll get wrenched away from the point I'm trying to discuss)

Quote:
"Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."
Does attacking in this case mean attacks launching or attacks striking (change tense to try to get clear english.. damn this language).

If the "begining of combat" is the start of the assault phase it makes sense- you can be engaged with 1 unit and then assaulted and engaged by a second.. there is a reason why the rule has been stated.

If you are engaged with a single enemy unit as attacks are struck then why do you need a rule telling you that you can only attack them?
The onyl way to be engaged with a multi-combat and not be engaged by another unit is in a 2vs2 (or larger) fight where 2 waring unints are not touching each other... but then basic assault rules tell us they cant attack each otehr since they aren't in base to base anyway (so why would the multiple combat section need to restate it?).


Basically put- either new attackers into an old combat cannot be attacked for the first turn, or the P41 rule at hand is totally unnecessary (as it doesnt add anything to the basic assault rules)...

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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
The onyl way to be engaged with a multi-combat and not be engaged by another unit is in a 2vs2
That is true if you are talking about units, however the rule states models.

You can have a unit be engaged by two enemy units but at the same time have a model be only engaged by one unit.

For example

A is one unit from team 1
B is one unit from team 2
C is one unit from team 2

if you have the diagram below

AAAC
BBBC

The red A would not be allowed to allocate attacks against unit C. That is the point of the rule. This example is basic and ignores the part about models within two inches, but its just the same idea for that as well.

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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 10:14 PM
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Tim/Steve, did you completely miss my post back there?

I put up a more in depth version of what asianavatar just iterated - basically, the rule states that if you are in B2B with one unit, you cannot allocate your attacks against another. That's it.
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-19-09, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
Either this "beginning of the combat" is the start of the assault (1) phase or its when attacks are thrown (2).

If 1 if true then you cant attack a unit that has charged you if you were locked in combat through the player turn switch.

If 2 is true then a unit engaged from a previous turn can attack enemies that have assaulted that turn... however, if that is so then the whole point is redundant: if anyone can explain how you can be engaged by 1 unit before you use your attacks and 2 afterwards then I will instantly be convinced that this is the correct interpretation...
- the only thing I can think of that could make sense of this quote and 2 is that all the quote is saying that if your engaged you have to use your attacks... if so why does it have that line about "at the beginning of combat" and why is it in the section on multiple combats?
As Crimson_Chin alluded to, it refers to Independent Characters who are the same unit when you assault, but a different unit when A are allocated.

As html's point 2 stated - if you then charged in, this rule would prevent you fighting either, as you weren't present at the beginning of the initial assault. I'm honestly shocked how many of you have this (IMO) wrong...
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-20-09, 09:02 PM
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This one seems pretty straightforward boys.

I'll begin with a quote from the beginning of the "Multiple Assaults" rule section, which although gives no hard RAW evidence toward much in this rules discussion, it gives nice perspective for RAI.

Quote:
If a unit that is already locked in combat from a previous turn is assaulted by a new enemy unit, i can react as normal, It's models must be moved into base contact with models from any of the unit that they are fighting, not just the enemies that just assaulted them.
Now, as for the real interpretation of the rule...

Quote:
Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of the combat (before an model attacked) must attack that unit.
Quite simply, they are referring to attacks. If they meant it as the OP's new friend's seem to think, they would very clearly use the term "assault" in place of "attacked". I don't know of any place in the BRB where they ambiguously used either term, attacked means rolling dice for your hits, much like shooting. Assaulted means the movements. This rule, IMO, is meant toward either IC as others have said, or it is put towards giant clusterfucks where you can have 5+ units involved and one unit is still only engaged with one unit, and must attack that unit alone.

Once again though, horrible wording to GW, thanks for the editing guys.

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-20-09, 09:30 PM
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I guess I may help with the french BRB. In this one, the wording is more clear and appears that a combat is the time where models fight. It's not the assault phase.

So, the beginning of the combat is the moment just after the assault moves and countercharge moves and just before dices are thrown.

Besides, the second bullet just after the sentence you all quoted states that a model engaged with 2 units can choose to attack both of them and split its attacks between them.

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-21-09, 06:03 AM
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This thread is making my ears bleed

I've looked for a reason to include that sentence and I just can't find one.

The assault phase summary on p33 clearly states which part of the assault phase is considered the combat, ie from rolling a to-hit dice.

There have been a couple of just downright mistakes posted above though which should be de-bunked.

1. It is nothing whatsoever to do with independant characters. They fight as a separate unit following all the rules for multi unit combats

Quote:
BRB p49 - as described under Multiple Combats on p41
2. And the B2B red herring. To be engaged a model must be

Quote:
BRB p35

Models in base contact with any enemy models

Models within 2" of at least one model in thier that is in base contact with any enemy models.
There is no further distinction in the rules between engaged and B2B.

The sentence under discussion seems to be entirely tautological. We already know that models can only attack units with which they are engaged. The only really tenuous reason for including this is to remind us that in a large confusing combat units cannot allocate thier attacks wherever they like but must stick to the rules on engaged models.

IMO
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-21-09, 08:30 AM
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Default Multi Unit Combat.

I have taken a great deal of time to read the rules very carefully and i have prepared this to help quell this dispute.

I had also heard from a GW employee that if a unit joins an assault the defender cannot direct attacks at them. This, as i have found is only partially untrue.

Take this example: (For the sake of everyone's sanity bear with it as i have used the entire assault phase in my demonstration. Please, read it all)


khorne berzerkers are in combat with the thousand sons at the start of the assault phase (this is NOT combat). The unit of terminators wishes to assault them.


As per the rules, the closest model in the Squad moves up to 6" to make base contact with the enemy models.


The closest terminator has now made his assault move. The rest of the terminators may now make thier assault moves in any order.


This terminator cannot reach the berzerkers on the far side, and thus must attempt to make contact with the enemy elsewhere.


The terminator is well within assault distance of this berzerker


The terminator now moves into base contact with the enemy.


The last terminator, which obviously able to reach combat, cannot get into base contact, and thus most move within 2" of another model in his unit that is in base contact with the enemy.


all terminators have been moved, and no enemy models are free to react, thus all models are now "engaged". This is the beginning of combat. (After all assault moves, but before blows are struck)

Now onto the root of the problem...



This is where all the confusion lies. The key lies in the term in the rulebook. "Models" p. 41 BRB

"Models that were engaged with just one of the enemy units at the beginning of combat (before any model attacked) must attack that unit."

If we take a look at the numbered khorne berzerkers in the picture we can see this.

Berzerker 1 - base contact with tsons (He must attack them)
Berserker 2 - Base contact with tsons (he must attack them)
Berserker 3 - Base contact with tsons (he must attack them)
Berserker 4 - Base contact with both units. (he may choose which unit to attack)
Berserker 5 - Base Contact with both units. (he may choose which unit to attack)

You look at each model in the defending unit and for each one do the following...

Check for base contact. If the model is in base contact with an enemy model it must direct it's attacks at the model in base contact.

If that model is not in base contact with an enemy it must check to see if there is a a friendly model from the same unit within 2" that is in base contact with an enemy model. If there is, it may direct it's attacks and any models in base contact with that friendly model.

If not, it cannot attack at all.

In multiple unit combat, you tally your attacks model vs. model. Then roll your dice as a unit.

I hope this helps.

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Last edited by Pirate Metal Troy; 06-21-09 at 08:35 AM.
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 06-21-09, 01:22 PM
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PMT, and excellent post overall, but one glaring problem - the closest Terminator must not only move first, and engage in B2B, but he must move the shortest possible distance.
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