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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-09, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Default Flesh hooks and vertical terrain

Suppose a wall is 10 inches, you roll three die (difficult terrain), getting a 5. How do you play this, a red shirt told me they need a ledge or else can't go up. I would think that the entire unit is to be played as if they were 5 inches up wall.

What do you think?

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-09, 09:12 AM
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Well, it would be up to you and your opponent to decide, but I'd probably go by the rules for building and ruins in the BRB, specifically P83. In that, it states that you have to be able to physically place the model in order to be able to move it. Using that, you would need a ledge, or you wouldn't be able to move them up 5" one turn, and 5" the next, but it would simply be impassable to you.

you could of course agree with your opponent before hand that it would be possible, as the idea of 'nids slowly scaling the walls is pretty cool, but otherwise, probably not, if only to keep things simple.

Also remember that you don't have to try to scale the wall with your movement if you couldn't make it normally. So, if you rolled a 5", which isn't enough to get up the wall, you could use that 5" movement to move you round the side or something, the movement isn't just lost.

[Edited for clarity]

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-09, 09:22 AM
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Yup.. that's pretty much it. it takes 3 inch movement to get up 1 floor and 6 to get up 2. So if you're assaulting a 2 floor building from the building side, and can't get on the 1st floor, unless you roll a 6, you're screwed. Ofcourse you can always make some holes in the building

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-09, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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So the rule saying "treat vertically impassable terrain as difficult terrain" is truly pointless; as any model can climb verticle terrain if there is an appropriate ledge.

Oh well, thanks for your help. There goes my plans for a sneaky assualt.

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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-06-09, 07:04 PM
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Not really, ruined buildings aren't vertically impassible, they have floors and the movement represents running up stairs etc. if the building was an intact building or a cliff 12" high you could assault up it with hormagaunts (12" assult range) but you'd double the difficult terrain dice so your average is gonna be about 7. still a nice trick cause I seriously doubt he'd be expecting that.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 12:23 PM Thread Starter
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As the only quote offered against this tactic is the one about only going to higher levels of a building if model can be placed; and the book ,p13 "wobbly model syndrome", states: "... a piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model ... it is perfectly acceptable to leve the model in a safer position, as long as both players have agreed and know its 'actual' location."

So in review, I will still play that nids with flesh hooks do treat vertically impassable terrain as difficult terrain. But I will discuss with opponent before game, and if doesn't accept I won't push the issue.

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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 12:30 PM
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if it was me I would push the issue up his snotty green nose, the fact your oppent doesn't like this rule is that your getting a tiny little advantage compared to everything else. If he is really annoying say you can't use a template from a rhino (if a marine player) etc, that should shut them up
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 04:14 PM
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First, I'm strongly in favor of making flesh hooks useful because they have a point cost associated with them. So I'm very much in support of codex trumping rulebook to allow the little bugs to climb the walls of ruins by treating them as vertical terrain to get to the higher levels. But it's really, really important to get the terrain rules straightened out before you start a game so that there aren't any mid-game "surprises". Getting into an argument on turn three where you want to climb the wall and get his guys, and he thinks that his guys are completely safe and put them there because they would be safe is no good at all.

Back to the original question, it should come down to upon what you and your opponent agree. You could do something as simple as piling some dice on the bases of your bugs to show how far they've gotten up the wall, or make it risky by requiring that if the climbers can't cover the distance that turn they fall back down.

Or you could just let the red shirt make all of the decisions.

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 07:21 PM
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Personally I've never played a game with impassible terrain... we play all terrain as difficult. Flesh hooks would start to be useful if you had a cliff 2-3" tall that you said was impassible (eg a canyon runs through the board).
As for climbing a 12" high vertical suface its impossible unless you move 12". The rules for models moving up levels in buildings are that if you don't reach a level you can't get there. If there are no places to stand midway up the cliff then you must get bottom-top in 1 turn... if there are places to stop then you can agree with your opponent that your nids are perched upon them, even if they can't balance there or if there isn't enough room for all your models to fit.

As for flesh hooks being useless- they still count as frag grenades, so you ignore I penalites. Personally thats the only reason I ever take them, or have reason to use them.

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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-10-09, 09:37 PM
 
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After reading everyone's response to the question I have to say, many are forgetting the important rule for 40K of 'the specific overrules the general'. If the rulebook says "Models can't climb up to another level on a vertical surface unless they can reach it with their movement etc etc" and the nids codex says "this specific piece of equipment allows you to actually move up a vertical surface as if it's difficult terrain", then it overrules the more general rule book. To say "No, rulebook trumps codex, they don't do that" is the same thing as saying "No, you're Imp guard Orders that allows you to add one shot to your lasgun fire for that turn doesn't work because the rulebook says you can only have two shots on rapid fire!". So use markers, dice stacking, whatever you have to in order to demonstrate where your nids are on the walls, because it is legit to have them partway up the wall at the end of the turn, why? because the codex says that it treats vertical impassable terrain as difficult terrain. Don't listen to the naysayers.
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