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post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-07-16, 03:39 PM Thread Starter
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Default Drop Pod FAQ

So: I'm wondering if I'm either crazy, but I'm not reading the drop pod FAQ as the bombshell that the rest of the world is. Let me elaborate on two points, and let me know what you think:

1: Disembarking
It seems like the world is interpreting that you are basically going to be 12" away from a drop pod door when disembarking. I 100% disagree with that interpretation.

The rule for disembarking says to place a model, 1 at a time, in base contact with the access point. Isn't the access point the giant opening in the GW model? Is the tip of the door still the access point? I'm fairly certain that the hole they exit from is the access point. (Edit: Open-topped comments in a later post)

Open or closed, models move exactly the same way if the opening remains the access point as I would expect is intended.

Of course: If I model the drop pod with an opening door, and it can't open due to placement, can I even use that door to place marines adjacent for disembarking? (I would say no)

2: Battlefield Choke
Let's assume the space marine player tries to cheese the battle by dropping 22 pods on the table.

There are a few considerations, such as: will the units inside reasonably be able to disembark? That's sort of a maybe, because they can fit in that 2" gap between pods even in the tightest placement, but fortunately for the opponent, those marines can't walk across another model, so they too are kind of stuck.

Secondly here: Drop pods are not land raiders. Maybe just shoot them? You can walk on wrecked vehicles. I get that this tactical choke is a consideration, but I don't see why blowing up a pod isn't the answer.

And realistically, is it even possible to avoid the problems with scatter?

The positioning for an interlocking door deployment is tight, and the rules for deep strike say that you place/face the model, then do the scatter move. Even with inertial guidance, will all of the doors be able to open? (probably not) If you place it with them open, and it scatters away from the adjacent one, there will be gaps. Small gaps, but gaps nonetheless.

It just seems like you're betting the game on a very specific hand.

Other Thoughts
Sure: Drop pods have the possibility to get in the way. On the plus side, the opponent's entire army is likely going to have a 5+ cover save in a choke scenario, because there is almost always going to be an intervening model.

If you see you opponent walk up to the table with a cart of drop pods: cover every inch of your deployment that you can, put your clearing units and vehicles in line with the objectives, and bull-doze a path to them.

In other good news for assault armies: you only need to assault the tip of an open door, right? Isn't the door part of the hull?

And hopefully lastly: Even not counting the doors, wouldn't the 22 or whatever drop pod list pose very similar problems with closed drop pods? Drop, Disembark, Drop, Disembark, etc. Inertial guidance will already help to create a giant choke net of unit bubbles.

Anyway: This topic has come up so many times in discussions that I was hoping to get some outside feedback and see if there is something else that I am missing or not considering. I honestly think that the doors counting is worse for the spam/choke list space marine, since you have less space to get your weapons with punch onto the battlefield, and you likely offer your enemy free cover saves.

Thoughts?

Last edited by ArkInRev; 07-08-16 at 03:09 PM.
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post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-07-16, 10:36 PM
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I feel that somewhere there was a discussion about this, but I cannot find it.

So, ya I think that this ruling is complete shit, and I shall ignore it and just play it as I have always done so.

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post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-08-16, 12:53 AM Thread Starter
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I can't find one around here either.

I don't really think it's shit, but that it has no real impact in the proper context of the rest of the rules.
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post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-08-16, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ArkInRev View Post
I don't really think it's shit, but that it has no real impact in the proper context of the rest of the rules.
So currently, with the FAQ where the doors are a part of the model, which mean when the doors open, you cannot assault OVER them, you MUST stay 1" away at all times, and does not provide cover.

Now a drop pod has a 11" diameter and blocks all movement in a 13" diameter. A few of them completely shut down a side.

I remember reading the comments here, which might be why I remember so.

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Originally Posted by neilbatte
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post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-08-16, 03:07 PM Thread Starter
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The door may not provide cover, being thin, but the pod seems like it's going to get in the way of shooting if you plan for a choke.

They also block both armies when it comes to assault, and reduce the footprint within which marines can then disembark. If any one model can't disembark, and since they all must be able to disembark in unit coherency, that seems like an extra possible negative to the approach.

I think most of the BoLS comments are echoing what I am saying about the access point/hull. The issue is the Open-topped. On one hand, it makes since that an open vehicle like this should suffer the negatives of open-topped. The fallout if the door is hull, and open-topped vehicles don't have specific access points.

The FAQ also says that if any part of the model scatters off the board, it's a mishap, so dropping close to an edge is dangerous. It sort of infers that the drop pod doors will be open if they open, when deploying the model. And if that's the case: It seems like all of the doors need to open fully to avoid mishap. That again, reduces the amount of available space to drop into. Fitting an 11" footprint into deep striking seems fairly daunting.

I've got a batrep on the other monitor at the moment, and drop pods are tightly between enemy units, but the FAQ is not in effect. The marines are disembarking onto the drop pod doors, and the pod is otherwise surrounded by enemy units. If the FAQ were in effect, it's hard to tell, but it looks like these 10 marines would be dead; even if trying to disembark from the door tips. Additionally: The drop pod can't fit between the terrain, because the enemy, and the terrain, are both in the way. The open door is sitting on the terrain, which is a mishap. They have the hull in the open, but the doors hovering over terrain.

I really wish more batreps were using the FAQ as it is now. It would be nice to see more examples of it playing out rather than just throwing it away.

And even if at the end of the day, the intent is for simplicity and flow, it's not any more of an awkward situation than land raiders on roof tops or flamers hitting 4 levels of ruins.

Maybe it's just that I play on terrain heavy boards, much more than tournaments usually have, but I can easily see marines choking themselves out of being able to place a large number of pods.
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post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-08-16, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ArkInRev View Post
They also block both armies when it comes to assault, and reduce the footprint within which marines can then disembark...

How does it block one's own army from assaulting? There is no rule that friendly models have to be X distance away. If you are going with the argument that the doors do not allow any model to traverse across it then it only helps the player with the drop pods; due to either forcing the opponent to shoot/assault the drop pods, go around thus being a delaying force, dropping empty drop pods being totally worth while now for that effect of being a huge hindrance ,

I've got a batrep on the other monitor at the moment, and drop pods are tightly between enemy units, but the FAQ is not in effect. The marines are disembarking onto the drop pod doors ((So played before, or ignoring, the FAQ - so far I see nothing of issue), and the pod is otherwise surrounded by enemy units. If the FAQ were in effect, it's hard to tell, but it looks like these 10 marines would be dead; even if trying to disembark from the door tips. Additionally: The drop pod can't fit between the terrain, because the enemy, and the terrain, are both in the way. The open door is sitting on the terrain, which is a mishap...
The Drop pod wouldn't mishap IIRC with that explanation, due to its Inertial Guidance System special rule (or whatever it's called), you simply move it until it would be able to deploy - unless it goes off table, which then it just rolls on the mishap table and there's a decent enough chance that it just goes back into reserves.

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Originally Posted by neilbatte
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post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-08-16, 07:57 PM Thread Starter
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You can't move through your own units. "Models in the Way" section of the rules. (a model can never move or pivot through another model (friend or foe) at any time. They must move around.) The only way you're getting through is by snaking your unit between doors in the 2", which is a single file line, for the initial charger. Neither side can charge over the door.

Additionally: An enemy model can't move within 1" of a drop pod unless they are assaulting in the Assault phase. The rule wording is something similar to that. Both sides absolutely can charge the gap. Or multi-assault and get the drop pod too. It's all in the tiny little "Models in the Way" section. The only thing the enemy unit can't do, is ignore the drop pod.

As for the batrep, it's recent, but ignoring FAQ, which is fine. My comment about it was that had it been in effect, that deployment would not have been possible, even with inertial guidance. It never fit with the doors out in the space that it went into. Additionally, I want to see more people playing with this rule, so I wish there were more out there. Basically, the bulk of the commentary about the rule talks about all of the advantage, without much of the probability or likelihood of the negative. Since there are almost none out there with the FAQ in play fully, the application of the FAQ is hypothetical. Of course, as is mostly the case, some of the FAQ has been adopted in batreps and does get called out. It seems silly to "a la carte" the FAQ.

Inertial guidance does indeed prevent mishap. However, on the field, with an 11" footprint, there would be fewer landing options for a pod. On the table edge, there is no inertial guidance protection, and the pod is out of luck. That is nearly a good enough reason to glue your doors shut.

Even with inertial guidance, a massive footprint of a drop pod will find situations in which it is just not able to be deployed. Alleyways or firing lanes with gaps less than 11" would just not be valid locations to drop the pod. With a reasonable amount of terrain, how many units would it really take to deny an 11" footprint deep strike? I play with generally 8 sqft. of the table covered in terrain. There are often times, when land raiders have a tough time navigating. There are very few places where an 11" footprint will fit even before units are on the board.

So, just a quick revisit of the batrep: I want to see some practical situations where this is in play, other than my own. With the terrain amount I use, drop pods do provide cover saves, and there are not really a lot of options for an open door drop pod to fully land. I would appreciate more of the "FAQ In Effect" content out there. There is finally an FAQ and suddenly it seems a lot of selective earmuffs and blinders in the community comments and content.

It's anecdotal, but my experience with the rule in effect is not echoing the outcry. If you have tried playing with the rule in effect, was your terrain covering 8+ sqft of table space?
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post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 07-09-16, 12:54 AM
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Drop pods don't care about terrain though, so I don't see how "Table - (terrain + models) = landing zone" is a legitimate argument, with inertial guidance it has always been "table - enemy/friendly models = landing zone (pray that you don't scatter off table)".

Thanks for the heads up on the "can't move through friendlies line" I must have overlooked that.

----

The average board (6'x4') is 24 square feet, = 3,456 square inches

The area of a circle is Pi x Radius Squared; so with the radius of a Drop pod being roughly 5.5 inches it comes out to being just about 95 square inches.

In theory that means that you could fit 36 drop pods on a table.

If by GW terms at least 25% of the table is covered in terrain, then because drop pods and enemy models can both overlap terrain I will not reduce the deploy-able area for drop pods are reduced to... however I will say that the models on the table are non-deploy-able so let's say between 1/2 (1,728 square inches) and 2/3 (~2,280 square inches) of a table IS deploy-able for drop pods (potentially more if the Drop podding army is solely using drop pods). So again in theory between 18 and 24 drop pods can land, lets reduce the amount of drop pods to 1/3 of that value so realistically between 6 and 8 drop pods will land on a table.

Therefore between ~570 square inches (~4 square feet) and ~760 square inches (~5.25 square feet) of the table are taken up by drop pods. Which is between 17-22% of the table.

Add in the terrain then somewhere between 25% and 47% of the table is likely to be covered by terrain and drop pods. Again because Drop pods and terrain can overlap then the minimum terrain/area effected is not combined.

----

Now for another potential wrinkle is that due to the physical terrain the drop pod doors may, or may not, fully extend to reach their maximum area denial.

----

I personally do not see any real potential issue with the new drop pod FAQ, I just think that it is 1: stupid to have only drop pods be treated differently than the rest of the entirety of the system when treating Doors/ornamentation on vehicles/models - where the rest of the system simply ignores these - backpack banners on Space Marines, doors on Land Raiders/Rhinos/Chimeras/Devilfish/wave serpent - drop pods are now unique.

If drop pods are meant to be played via the FAQ rather than RAW in the BRB, then personally I find that drop pods need to be drastically raised in point cost, somewhere near 75-100 would be where I start for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilbatte
if you squint the Sigmar stuff doesn't all look like the love children from a Necron and Blood Angel orgy.
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