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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-25-15, 03:49 PM
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Most of them have been mentioned, Strength D weapons, Invisibility, and a few formations.
I was never a big fan of Allies. Every army has a strength and weakness built into it and the challenge was always finding a way to work around your army weakness. Allies eliminate the weakness of that army.
Rerollable saves the 2+++ saves are crazy. The old days you got one chance at saving a wound. Now you have units and guys that are nearly unkillable because they have four 2+++ saves to roll since they have the magical vibrator showed up their ass while they fight.


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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-25-15, 04:44 PM
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Re-rollable 2+ saves have never really bothered me for some reason - if it's armour or cover, you can ignore it, and if it's Invulnerable then it's a unit of Chaos Daemons who passed the Grimoire check. I don't think any other army can get a re-rollable 2++ non-conditionally - any army with Divination and Sanctic can get a 3++ with Forewarning + Sanctuary (although having to roll up both powers makes it far from reliable even for Space Marines with Tigurius or Loth), Eldar can go to 3+ rerollable with Fortune (and don't need the Forewarning, which helps a lot, but you still need to roll up the two different powers; with just two Farseers I believe you have a 25% chance of getting Fortune and Sanctuary); Imperium can get re-rollable 3++ or 2++ but only in melee on a Ld7 leadership check, making it far more manageable; only Daemons can go to 2+ rerollable, and only on Tzeentch units (otherwise known as only on Screamers) and you have to take a very expensive, quite fragile FMC to enable that as a build. Once Fateweaver's gone, you're basically fucked, if the Herald gets sniped out you're fucked (the bearer doesn't benefit from the Grimoire, I believe), and taking your own psykers on Sanctic once you see you're against Daemons can easily roll it back to a 3+ rerollable anyway.

In short, they don't come up very often and they can usually be dealt with without too much difficulty (3+ rerollable Invulns on a Seer Council is the worst, because they're self-contained unlike Daemons, but that's 1 army in the game and between Wraithknights, Warp Spiders and Jetbikes, I'm not overly concerned about the Seer Council given that there are hard counters to it).

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-25-15, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
Honestly, powers are one of the few things I think that randomisation is arguably a good idea with.
At least fluff wise, since a Psyker can never truly rely on their powers to work exactly how they want.
Rules-wise I can appreciate why randomness is a bad thing, because it encourages Psyker stacking to guarantee an important power.
I feel like perils of the warp gets that uncertainty off well enough. Any time you cast, you can kill yourself doing it; that's pretty uncertain. I wouldn't mind the randomness if it was at least more controlled randomness - like biomancy only has blessings and maledictions so you know when you roll in it that you might not get the crazy good one, but you'll still get something in the same vein. Or, if you have two powers, I'd be fine if you pick one but get one randomly. Even if you picked powers but their strength was random (like pick Iron Arm but then roll to randomly determine how much str and toughness you get out of it or something) I'd be alright with it, but the same psyker with the same discipline(s) could be almost unrecognizable from game to game, and I am just not that into that.
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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-25-15, 10:24 PM
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It has always, always, always bugged me that you can't Run and Assault. I think having something like "if you run, your charges count as Disordered" would be fine, but the idea of the assault unit walking at the same pace as the shooters turns every battle into the damn Somme. Surely if you're only role in life is close combat, you're going to be sprinting full speed ahead to get to grips with your for and the shooters will advance more slowly to ensure better fire discipline. That bugs me.

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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-25-15, 11:35 PM
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Oh come on, that's the only thing the orks have got going for them!
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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-26-15, 04:10 AM
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^ can't an Ork Boss/HQ (I just kill 'em) get a 2+ re-rollable save?

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but the idea of the assault unit walking at the same pace as the shooters turns every battle into the damn Somme
Jump Packs.

Seriously though I think that because Running ignores terrain this would be ridiculous. If Running was negatively impacted by terrain like movement and charging was I could see this being an easy choice, despite my love for Jump Packs and never once thinking this needed to happen. Makes sense though for an assault unit to be quick on their feet, and though Fleet exists it no longer allows the same bonus as it once did.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-26-15, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
I used to hate all the randomness, particularly Seize the Initiative, but it's all grown on me.
I think that Seize is actually a fantastic rule. It forces the player going first to not rely so heavily on deploying in good shooting positions. If the opponent seizes, and you're deployed for a first-turn nuke of your opponent, it can really hurt you.

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I was never a big fan of Allies. Every army has a strength and weakness built into it and the challenge was always finding a way to work around your army weakness. Allies eliminate the weakness of that army.
I started playing in 3rd, and I don't remember allies ever being implemented very well. It's just become absolute garbage since 6th.
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-26-15, 11:56 AM
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^ can't an Ork Boss/HQ (I just kill 'em) get a 2+ re-rollable save?
Well yes, a mega-armoured Warboss with Da Lucky Stikk is your culprit there, but that's an extra 65 points on a standard warboss.
But apart from that, running and charging in one round with re-rolls for ere we go, with 4x str4 attacks per boy plus the Nob powerklaw is all we got.
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-26-15, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
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^ can't an Ork Boss/HQ (I just kill 'em) get a 2+ re-rollable save?
Yes, but with a pathetic Invulnerable save of - oh, no, he doesn't have any kind of invuln.

2+ re-rollable armour and cover is a total non-issue, personally. It's Invuln that's the trouble - the only realistic counter to it is Stomp, and not all races can get/want that.

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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 12-26-15, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidnightSun View Post
Yes, but with a pathetic Invulnerable save of - oh, no, he doesn't have any kind of invuln.
I've had one of those jerks tank -all- of the saves from a charging unit of Death Company out of a Land Raider. 40 attack re-rolling to hit, and I did not a single wound thanks to that 2+ re-rollable. Yeah, there was luck....but 2+ re-rolling is pretty dumb regardless of the points cost. Like you pointed out when I joked about paying for Invisibility, some things are worth it despite the cost.

Armour/cover/invulns are good enough without being able to be re-rolled. That's what Feel No Pain is for.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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