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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-19-08, 01:27 AM
 
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hmm, but what if 1 unit has 30 models, and the other has 2...randomizing on a 123,456 doesn't really work well -_-
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-19-08, 01:54 AM
 
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Page 273 on the big rule book or bgb gives rules for shooting into combat for a 3 player scenario, true its a scenario and not a set game rule, but if often picked certain rules from this like deployment and the shooting into combat as well as player turns for a fun 3 way fight and works out well, hope this helps cheers
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 10:01 AM
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"3 ways" are a common occurance with the group I play with. Particularly because someone always feels like its more fun to bring your minis and not play a game. They would rather watch and commentate. We have a house rule that you can shoot into CC if you are not involved. We resolve this by determining who is wounded with a d6 roll. First roll to hit. Then designate on a 1-3 this unit is wounded and on a 4-6 this unit is wounded. If one player has a significant amount of models more than the other then change it to 1-4 and 5-6. It's really hilarious to sit back and just mow down both players at the same time. Kind of lame, but why would I want my necrons in CC. Its another story if I were using my World Eaters. Bodies will bleed dry.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 12:19 PM
 
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Why not have a rule like this;

Roll to hit, and half the result; this is the number of D6 your opponents roll.

Example: 5 Chaos Space Marines and 5 Space Marines are in Assault. A unit of 12 Fire Warriors fires into them and scores 8 hits. The Chaos and Marine player must roll 4 To Wound dice rolls each.

Then take Armour Saves as normal.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 06:13 PM
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One way I've done it is target a unit to shoot at as normal.

If the shots hit, roll a D6. Dependant on variables (Monstrous Creatures/Vehicles/Modifiers to targetting (being in cover = -1 to hit or some obscure rule), on a 1-3 it hits the other side, on a 4-6, it hits the target.

If you are firing at a unit which has -1 to hit, because it's in cover, against a monstrous creature, then I'd give it a -1 to the randomisation (i.e you hit the targets on a 5+, on a <4, you're hitting the Monstrous Creature.). The Monstrous Creature has a +1 on it's side, so you are getting a further +1 to hit it. (so you're now hitting it with a <5, and the targets on a 6.

It takes judgement, and if there's conflict, then usually, we roll it off.



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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 06:44 PM
 
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There's all this stuff about calculating things, but they tried to get rid of that in warhammer, so how about this instead (it makes things a whole lot simpler!):


1)If a unit fires into close combat, then there must be no friendly troops involved in the combat at all.

2)The firing player declares that he is shooting at one unit (which he must specify) in the close combat.

3)Check range as normal to that unit (not the combat as a whole)

4)roll on the firing units BS, using the majority if there are multiple values, or the highest if there is no majority. On the roll of a hit, they have hit their chosen target. continue to roll to hit & wound etc. as normal against that unit.

5)On the roll of a miss, then the firing player must nominate one other unit in the combat, and check the range to that unit. If he is out of range then all shots are an automatic miss. If he is in range, then continue to roll to hit & wound etc. as normal against that unit


-I think we can assume that the soldiers are at least able to aim at an enemy, so you don't need to randomise so much (although they still might hit a different unit)

Last edited by Railguns are fun; 10-20-08 at 06:46 PM.
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 07:29 PM
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That just makes it too easy though. You can fire at a target, and always hit.

Things such as Orks, which have rather nasty ranged weaponry, when it works/hits can proove nasty with this. When they then hit close combat, they're more than the equal of space Marines, at a third of the cost.

I don't like the miss, hit something else - Hell, an Ork fires at something, it hits, it hits something, it misses, it brings down a Battleship. It's not representative enough for such races (although Marines, Guardsmen to some extent, Eldar, and Tau are likely to be good enough).



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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 08:11 PM
 
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But you won't always hit. You still have to roll to hit, you know. The extra roll is merely to determine which squad you hit, but you have a better chance of hitting your intended target if you have a better BS. Hence why marines and eldar etc. will hit their target unit more often than an Ork. So what's the problem?
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-20-08, 09:37 PM
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way we've always done it is easy
roll to hit
if there are 2 enemy squads involved you roll a d6, 123 hits squad a, 456 hits squad b
if there are 3 units involved 12 hits squad a, 34 hits squad b, 56 hits squad c
if 4.....well you probably have too many people playing

it keeps it fairer that way, even if 1 person only has 2 men and another has 30, who cares, there both your enemy if your shooting at them

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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 10-21-08, 10:23 AM Thread Starter
 
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We have decided to TRY (but not officially adopt) a less random formula. The player shooting and all players in the close-combat make an Initiative check (d6+I). The shooter may target any one of the units that he beat. The shooting is resolved normally, with the except that the defending unit has a cover save as if blocked by another unit (4+). If all the units in close-combat made higher Initiative checks, than the shooting unit was unable to get a shot.

Our flavor for this is simply that even in aggressive close-combat, the models know what is going on across the battlefield (how else would we justify moving our units the way we do in response to our enemy's movements far beyond line of sight?) and are aware they are being aimed at. The fastest responding units in close-combat are able to make themselves practically invisible by moving unpredictably between within the melee, and agile tactics allow them to put the enemy between the unit shooting and themselves.

Now, here comes the interesting part: not only can the person shooting fail to beat ANY Initiative, and therefore simple be unable to fire effectively at any target (maybe they fire but miss their target, maybe they hold because they can't effectively track their target, but for whatever reason a failed Initiative check means they were too slow to deal with the chaos of close-combat), but IF is able to target a unit, it may NOT be the unit he wanted to hit. If my enemies are Eldar and Tyranid, and they are locked in close-combat, I may want to weaken the Eldar, hoping to even the odds of the close-combat and thereby prolonging it, or at least increasing the overall body count. But if only the Tyranid units scored lower than my Init check, my firing unit is unable to get an effective shot on any Eldar. I may want to chose to not fire at all. After all, if I kill the Tyranids, the Eldar are no longer locked in CC and might find some of my targets.

The second amendment to this rule we are also going to test out is if, under these circumstances, the shooter deals 25% fatalities to the unit it will take it's Leadership roll as normal to see if it flees. But under the case of a failure, it will fall-back as if falling back from close-combat. Meaning: the opposing force in CC gets the sweeping advance, not the unit who did the shooting. We do this to add another bit of risk to firing into CC. Even if it's none of your own units, you may be strengthening one of your enemies a bit too much by granting them a sweeping advance (meaning victory points if your counting) or a saving some of their units from a death you'd rather they would have had.

So, the steps are:

Shooter picks the target CC, then verifies range.

All units, including shooter and all units in CC, make d6+I checks.

The shooting unit may choose any unit he equaled or beat to fire at, with the shooting otherwise resolved normally. (the defender has a cover bonus of 4+ granted by the close-combat)

If this attack causes a unit to fall-back due to losses, it is treated as if they are falling back from the CC, not the shooter, and the attackers in CC may make a sweeping advance, if possible.

That's what we'll playtest this weekend, since we're often playing free-for-all with 3 armies or more.
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