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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 10:19 AM Thread Starter
Eva
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Default 7th Edition Challenges.

Hi there, got a question on the new rules for challenges in 7th.

I know if a model does excess wounds in the challenge they spill over to the squad. Though how does the outside forces rule work?

"Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other models that are locked in the combat have been removed as casualties."

So it implies it works the other way around so excess wounds caused outside the challenge spill into the challenge, which is fine. The confusion I have is the "Allocate wounds" part. What happens when the one of the challengers does not have a squad? It says you can allocate wounds. Not roll to hit and then allocate wounds. So can your squad direct attacks at the challenger or not?

Thanks in advance.

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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 10:33 AM
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You cannot allocate attacks against it. Not sure how you can allocate wounds against models in a challenge either, considering you take saves AFTER allocating wounds.

Any excess wounds caused are lost, neither can non challengers attack models already in a challenge.



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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 11:59 AM Thread Starter
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Ah I understand. So really not changed from 6th then. Thanks!

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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 12:13 PM
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I think it's just poorly written, as ever.



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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 12:31 PM
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I'll disagree. The models in the challenge no longer have the statement that they are considered to be in btb only with each other. So the squad is engaged if they are within 2" of the model in the challenge. So they get to attack and the rules say that those wounds can be allocated into the challenge. I will agree that it's poorly written and without getting into 'intent', which none of us know, that's about all I can say.

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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 02:23 PM
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Just got my BRB out to double check.

Yeah, there's actually nothing to prevent those not involved in a challenge from attacking the other challenger.

Looking at the rules a bit more closely, the only real benefit to Look Out, Sir! is the removal of Look Out, Sir (but as a double edged sword, you lose it too). It seems to me that it was intended to prevent something from just running solo and tanking an entire unit by issuing a challenge so it only has to face characters one at a time - but that's a none-problem by a) the person not accepting that challenge and b) not forcing particular armies to issue/accept challenges, c) not having units full of characters and d) Allow targeted challenges (i.e target has to accept), but allow the targeted character to make an Heroic Intervention style thing to nominate another character or to avoid the attack, and remove this "all may attack" rubbish - defeats the entire idea of "challenge".

My idea would be to change it so that;

I.e Space Marine Captain is charged by Jain Zar and a squad of Banshee's. A Captain issues a challenge to the Aspect Warrior Exarch, which the exarch may choose to either accept, nominate another character to make the challenge (making an Initiative check), or refuse a challenge - in which case it must take an Initiative check (on its own initiative) to attempt to avoid the attack.

Maybe include rules for Charging allowing a reroll of Initiative tests when you are challenged by a charged model, while should the charged model have the Counter Attack special rule, then the reroll could be negated. There could also be an inherent bonus in that you get a bonus to the roll based on who has the highest Initiative, equal to the difference between them. I.e a Space Marine Captain is charged by the above example, then the Exarch may need to pass their Initiative check 6, against the Space Marine Captain (5), but if they were to nominate Jain Zar to accept the challenge, although they'd take the test against Initiative 6, it would be with a +2, rather than a +1 thanks to Jain Zar's Initiative of 7. Against Orks, however, an Ork Warboss in a Shoota Boy squad charged by the captain and having a challenge issued against him could nominate an Ork Nob to take his place - although testing on the warbosses initiative (4?), it would suffer a -2 thanks to the Nobz initiative of 3 versus the captain's 5. It would be on modified Initiative too.

If you're diving into an assault, then you're doing so for a reason. If you didn't want to be in an assault, then you shouldn't have been part of a unit to do so.



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Last edited by Vaz; 09-13-14 at 04:23 PM.
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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva View Post
So it implies it works the other way around so excess wounds caused outside the challenge spill into the challenge, which is fine. The confusion I have is the "Allocate wounds" part. What happens when the one of the challengers does not have a squad? It says you can allocate wounds. Not roll to hit and then allocate wounds. So can your squad direct attacks at the challenger or not?
The way I read the Challenges section is that you can't directly attack the people in a Challenge with Outside Forces, but if those Outside Forces have attacked the rest of the unit and there are extra wounds left over after they can be allocated to the model from that unit involved in the Challenge. Seems to me it swings both ways now, if there are wounds left over from the Challenge they spill over to the loser's squad but the unit can't be attacked directly out of the Challenge.

EDIT: just noticed the re-roll benefit for having 5+ members in Outside Forces is gone. Good riddance!

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 04:10 PM
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There's nothing to support that, though. That's a holdover from the old rules in our heads. from what I can see.



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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post

I.e Space Marine Captain is charged by Jain Zar and a squad of Banshee's. A Captain issues a challenge to the Aspect Warrior Exarch, which the exarch may choose to either accept, nominate another character to make the challenge (making an Initiative check), or refuse a challenge - in which case it must take an Initiative check (on its own initiative) to attempt to avoid the attack.
Note that you (the challenger) do not get to pick out who you challenge. The defender chooses from amongst the eligible characters (ie engaged) and can use any one of them to accept the challenge. The initiative bit is from Glorious Intervention, where one character takes another characters place in the second or later rounds of a challenge. The only time the challenger picks a character in the challenge process is when the defender refuses the challenge, in that case the attacker can pick which model (from those that could have accepted) sits out the combat.

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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 04:22 PM
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I know. They were part of my suggestions for how to change the challenge system from being its current, near worthless thing that it is now.

Edit; apparently forgot to put that down, my bad.



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