7th Edition Challenges. - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Rules Discussion Post any Warhammer 40k rules queries and discussions here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
Eva
Member
 
Eva's Avatar
Eva's Flag is: New Zealand
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 97
Reputation: 1
Default

Yeah see, that's the problem. I don't see how allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge.

Eva is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 08:56 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

The more I read this, the more it doesn't seem like a separate fight at all like what don_mondo is on about. The description has indeed changed from 'only in b2b with each other' to 'in b2b contact with each other' which is significant. I am seeing Challenges now as a way of getting your beat-stick character hiding in a larger squad into combat while preserving his likely higher Toughness value. If you're a lone Character by yourself it seems you can't challenge your way to victory against a massive squad.

Quote:
Models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
If they didn't put the "(if any)" contingency in there it would be so much simpler. It's presence implies that there doesn't have to be a unit there for attacks and wounds to have been generated, and that the unit is free to make attacks provided they are in b2b contact or within 2" of someone who is. If that wasn't there it would read as I thought it did in my previous comment. Unfortunately that might just be what makes allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge, Eva.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP

Last edited by ntaw; 09-13-14 at 08:58 PM.
ntaw is offline  
post #13 of 20 (permalink) Old 09-14-14, 12:43 AM
Senior Member
 
don_mondo's Avatar
don_mondo's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Woodbridge, VA
Posts: 1,822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntaw View Post
If they didn't put the "(if any)" contingency in there it would be so much simpler. It's presence implies that there doesn't have to be a unit there for attacks and wounds to have been generated, and that the unit is free to make attacks provided they are in b2b contact or within 2" of someone who is. If that wasn't there it would read as I thought it did in my previous comment. Unfortunately that might just be what makes allocate wounds = target, roll to hit and then allocate wounds onto the one of the parties in a challenge, Eva.
This, exactly.

Don "MONDO"
don_mondo is offline  
 
post #14 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 01:00 PM
Member
 
TheV0791's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 56
Reputation: 6
Default

So here is a strange example with a question, my Vanguard Veterans assault two groups of Orcs, one having a Warboss. My Chapter Master and the Warboss are in a challenge and the rest of my squad is fighting both units. I allocate which Veterans attack which squad, the one's in base contact with only one unit of orcs have to choose that unit, but everyone else picks if they are within 2" of both (correct me if this is wrong). So my Veterans wipe the unit that was tied to the Warboss with a few extra wounds; do these go to the Warboss, to the other squad, or are they lost? And what if there was no Warboss; do the wounds get allocated to the other squad (I can't picture the rule right now).

At the end of the game the king and the pawn go into the same box .
TheV0791 is offline  
post #15 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 01:16 PM
Herald of The Warp
 
Nordicus's Avatar
Nordicus's Flag is: Denmark
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Odense, Denmark
Posts: 2,752
Reputation: 143
Default

I would say that they go to the other unit, as it's only when there's no other target available, that the wounds spill into a challenge.
Nordicus is offline  
post #16 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 01:21 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Quote:
Models locked in the combat can only allocate wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.
Just put the relevant line in bold. There were still other models locked in combat, therefore the wounds cannot spill into the Challenge. The wounds wouldn't be lost, just allocated to the other available models.


....pretty much what Nordicus said.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP
ntaw is offline  
post #17 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 01:28 PM
Vaz
Senior Member
 
Vaz's Avatar
Vaz's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 12,830
Reputation: 79
Default

Yeh, the purpose of a challenge is to get your possible higher toughness and save. Of course, the loss of Look Out Sir completely outweighs that - if something is going to be in a challenge these days it is going to have AP2. It is why Emperor s Children in 30k are so gimped due to the lack of actual challenge benefits, but to make use of their abilities which enhance challenges they need AP which is gained by one of 4 things - charnabal sabres, power axes, fists (et al) and Phoenix Spears. Of those, only Charnabal Sabres and Spears benefit from +1 Initiative - so that is a 10-20pt upgrade on a 15pt model just to succeed in a challenge which doesn't really offer you that much different.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
Vaz is offline  
post #18 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 02:01 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
if something is going to be in a challenge these days it is going to have AP2
Who can afford, in points, to give all their Characters AP2 capability? Maybe it's the 40k/30k difference, but I have been in a ton of challenges (specially against Chaos with their 'must challenge' rule) where there has been zero concern for anything other than jackass dice denying me an armour save.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP
ntaw is offline  
post #19 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 02:26 PM
Vaz
Senior Member
 
Vaz's Avatar
Vaz's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 12,830
Reputation: 79
Default

That was kinda the point. Running around 50pt unit sergeants (at best, 3 ws4 i5 S5 ap2 attacks) in order to get the bonuses for a challenge (+1 initiative) and risking not only losing but having an additional penalty for losing and dying (hence the 2+ save) just isn't worth it.

You have had to fight a likely tougher opponent sinply to remove his Look Out Sir. The Emperors Children have to shell out all those points simply to avoid risking a malus during the weakest stage in the game. They typically cost 30pts (artif armour and melta bombs), but if you are going that far, you might as well make use of your I5 - kill the enemy and then use your other attacks to potentially kill a couple of others.

That is a major problem with the challenge mechanic especially when forced to. There is just no point to it whatsoever. Maybe to protect you from a lone hidden powerfist while another character is there, but honestly? It seems like there should just be an option for models in base contact to target those models in base contact and use their statistics.

A forced challenge in return for +1 initiative - but if you die and lose combat, a further -1 to your morale is a piece of wank.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
Vaz is offline  
post #20 of 20 (permalink) Old 10-02-14, 02:56 PM
Senior Member
 
ntaw's Avatar
ntaw's Flag is: Canada
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Mississauga, Canada
Posts: 6,323
Reputation: 99
Default

Challenges are pretty awesome for getting, say, your Necron or Chaos Lord in a blob of Warriors or Cultists to still get their normal stat line used. I agree with you that it would be more realistic if there was a contingency for getting specific model stats with each model but it would bog down the Assault phase massively I think. Instead GW made a rule allowing Characters to get their stats shown (when really in a unit they are likely to be the ones with something that stands out) in CC and called it Challenges. It isn't the whole thing you are asking for, but hey it's something. I'm sure if your opponents are like-minded to the issue at hand you'd have no problem lengthening up the Assault Phase and making sure everyone is represented appropriately.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

40k Army Projects

Industrial Table WIP

Last edited by ntaw; 10-02-14 at 03:46 PM.
ntaw is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Rules Discussion

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome