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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by don_mondo View Post
No, the rulebook says that the template "cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat". See the difference between that and targeting the unit? BTW, the above cut-and-paste is from YOUR quote.

But you don't 'deliberately' place the template, it just happens due to following the rules of placing it.

If the target squad kust where two minis close to the firerer and you could only hit one mini when placing the template then this could be settled. Mini A hit + minis locked in combat, Mini B hit + no minis in locked in combat. In this case you would have to fire at mini B since there is more options to 'hutting as many as possible'. Then it would be to deliberately place the template if he was to fire at Mini A.

Now be aware that BatReps ain't 100% true to the rules. I have seen quite a few on youtube and can only remember two in which this occured. Once there where no discussion. In the other the discussion happened mostly because one of the models in the CC where the firerer's own. They took it as a collateral damage.

So it is very uncommon that it happens and if you think it might happen take the discussion with your opponent before it happens.

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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 12:22 PM
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I'll ask again since you didn't want to answer. You're saying you would deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon because a couple of people locked in combat might get hit by the edge of a template, despite the terms for firing a template weapon being met? I know what I quoted, it came out of the BRB and I typed it up. There's no need to get snide.
Wasn't being 'snide', was just pointing out that you posted the rule that disallows placing the template over models locked in combat. And no, wouldn't 'deny' the opportunity, just wouldn't let him place it over models locked in combat.

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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Moriouce View Post
But you don't 'deliberately' place the template, it just happens due to following the rules of placing it.
What, your hand slipped while placing it? C'mon, you know what the 'deliberately there means. 'Cannot' trumps 'must', so you cannot place it over models locked in combat, even tho you must cover the most models possible in the target unit. No FAQ needed this one is clear (to me, at least). Been this way since 2rd edition (2nd was the last time we were allowed to fire into a combat) and I see nothing in the rules that changes it.

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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 01:06 PM
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And no, wouldn't 'deny' the opportunity, just wouldn't let him place it over models locked in combat.
So you would indeed deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon if that was the only way it could be placed, bearing in mind that sometimes there's only the one place for the template to be placed due to friendly models.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-13-14, 04:17 PM
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So you would indeed deny your opponent the ability to shoot their weapon if that was the only way it could be placed, bearing in mind that sometimes there's only the one place for the template to be placed due to friendly models.
If it could not be placed without covering a model that was locked in hth, then yes, I would insist that they play by the rules and would deny them the shot. They should have planned and moved better.

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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-29-14, 06:51 PM
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I know that many may consider this thread done, but I feel I have to weigh in.

The first part says "models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat". Easy to understand. Cannot target them, but doesn't rule out indirect fire.

Second part says that "While blast markers and *templates* cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, *they may end up there* after scattering and will then cause hits on any units they touch (friends and foes!) as normal"

That listed exceptions, and bearing in mind the starred parts, the rule for templates says "template covers as many models in the target unit as possible"

So essentially, the choice for the final place of the template may taken from us for maximum coverage, which is essentially a scatter, a non intentional move. And the point is it may not always be beneficial - '(friend or foes!)'

However, if I may give two examples:

Scenario 1
Option 1 covers 5 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

Scenario 2
Option 1 covers 6 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

In scenario 1, option 2 is correct. While I would prefer option 1, the template is automatically moved as per the rules, and it happens to cover the cc unit.

In scenario 2, option 1 is correct. You cannot opt to cover the cc unit if you can cover the same amount elsewhere.

The only reason I came to this conclusion is the starred parts earlier. Whilst picking a few lines out doesn't define a rule, it would have been omitted entirely from the exceptions if it were not possible at all. I think the hang up is that people try to abuse it by deliberately trying to flame a cc unit. But if that is where the template must be placed, you have no choice. And it can still hit friendlies this way!
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-29-14, 07:08 PM
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Well written Craglansun, though you already know where I stand on the issue I'm sure

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-29-14, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Craglansun View Post
I know that many may consider this thread done, but I feel I have to weigh in.

The first part says "models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat". Easy to understand. Cannot target them, but doesn't rule out indirect fire.

Second part says that "While blast markers and *templates* cannot be deliberately placed such that they cover any models locked in combat, *they may end up there* after scattering and will then cause hits on any units they touch (friends and foes!) as normal"

That listed exceptions, and bearing in mind the starred parts, the rule for templates says "template covers as many models in the target unit as possible"

So essentially, the choice for the final place of the template may taken from us for maximum coverage, which is essentially a scatter, a non intentional move. And the point is it may not always be beneficial - '(friend or foes!)'

However, if I may give two examples:

Scenario 1
Option 1 covers 5 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

Scenario 2
Option 1 covers 6 enemies
Option 2 covers 6 enemies and 2 models in a unit in close combat (friend or foe)

In scenario 1, option 2 is correct. While I would prefer option 1, the template is automatically moved as per the rules, and it happens to cover the cc unit.

In scenario 2, option 1 is correct. You cannot opt to cover the cc unit if you can cover the same amount elsewhere.

The only reason I came to this conclusion is the starred parts earlier. Whilst picking a few lines out doesn't define a rule, it would have been omitted entirely from the exceptions if it were not possible at all. I think the hang up is that people try to abuse it by deliberately trying to flame a cc unit. But if that is where the template must be placed, you have no choice. And it can still hit friendlies this way!

You better explained what I was after in my previusly post. Good!

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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-29-14, 11:32 PM
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The key here is "scatter" a template or blast can only go over units locked in CC if it scatters. That is the only way it can inadvertently hit a disallowed model.

Ntaw, I would definitely deny them the shot just like I would if they placed their Flamer equipped model in the middle of the unit so they couldn't fire without hitting a friendly.

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 09-30-14, 01:14 AM
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Ntaw, I would definitely deny them the shot just like I would if they placed their Flamer equipped model in the middle of the unit so they couldn't fire without hitting a friendly.
The second half of what you said violates the rules for placing templates explicitly, so yeah. Fully. I've disallowed my own shooting in that instance. Guess when I start playing at the local GW if they tell me different I'll have to go with it, but no one in my gaming group gives a crap. It's not that I don't see you point, I just don't get why they include templates in the sentence at all if it only addresses blast markers. Maybe poor editing on GW's part, whatever. I'm over it, and if I have made a house-rule that this is allowed because I have misconstrued the ruling then that is what I have done and I apologize for dragging down a rules thread because of it. Either way, there's enough information in this thread at this point that I don't need to continue flogging a dead horse.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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