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post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-13-16, 04:13 PM
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Except Buzzgob's Stompa is highly contentious, and taking that for 400 points can be seen as TFG by many. I'm OK with kustom stompas though, and prefer them to the codex version.
Powerklaws are great, but to take on a knight, you're swamping it in Boyz to deliver the klaw, or klaws if you chuck in a IC, or you could spam MANZ of course.
So we're down to spamming klaws, until GW notices, and nerfs that too.
what the fuck are you smoking, amigo? Either you're new to Orks or you're very forgetful, because did you ever play with their 4th ed book? Tankbustas were exactly as they are now, but without Tank Hunters and were more expensive to justify having a detrimental special rule that forced them to shoot a vehicle if they could see it - and if they were out of range of that vehicle, they couldn't shoot. Lootas were more expensive. Boyz didn't have grenades. Painboys were Nobs-only. Boarding Planks were basically blank pieces of wargear. Ere We Go, a powerful rule, wasn't on a single unit, much less the entire army. What, exactly, makes you think that Orks have been nerfed, ever?

I hate to tell you this, but 'put Boyz with Klaws in Battlewagons' has been the consistent Ork strat since 4th edition, only challenged by Kan Wall in 5th (no, Green Tide was never a good army before the formation), and Zhadsnark/Buzzgob's Stompa since that was allowed in ITC. Boyz shielding Klaws is like Tau running Battlesuits, or Daemons running multiple fast, aggressive threats; it's what the faction does.

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Rush, I totally agree, tankbustas were excellent value for money, but they are so vulnerable, you have to spend points to protect them to get them in to combat, or spam the hell out of them.
'I don't want to field a load of dudes or have them be vulnerable'

So play Necrons?

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However we weren't throwing as many grenades as we liked, we were sacrificing multiple base attacks for a single attack per model, so between 5-10. Totally lethal, but the attrition of getting there means you were most likely only attacking with 3-6 models, if you were lucky.
'300% or 600% more Melta Bombs than any other army following up a volley from Tank Hunter krak missiles isn't good enough for a 13pt model'

Fuck, man, should they be 3+ armour and Twin Linked as well, or would you still complain that they didn't have ATSKNF?

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BS2 rockets are only really useful for knocking off a few hull you cannot rely on 5-10 BS2 shots to do any serious damage. Close combat melta bombs were where the bustas shined.
'Knocking off a few hull points' is kind of how you kill vehicles. Sure, they don't hit much, but once they do hit a Tank Hunter Krak Missile is very reliable at stripping Hull Points, and it's 130pts for a squad! That's the same as a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers, which will average the same number of hits but without Tank Hunter!

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Also, open topped av10 trukks get blown to hell so easily by virtually everything it's not even funny. Then All those t-shirt save Orks are taking str4 hits, wiping out about half the squad, then if you do have mob rule, even more are wiped out by your own nob. It's ridiculous, basically you have to write them off.
So bring Battlewagons instead? Trukks have been 'shit Battlewagons' since 4th ed, that hasn't miraculously changed now.

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Getting tankbustas into cc is an art in itself, requiring imagination, luck and flair, I've used All sorts of delivery systems, my favorite being weird boy ic and da jump, which has been great fun, but relies on so much luck it's hardly a viable or reliable strategy.
Battlewagon and numbers. Always worked for me. Sure, a Battlewagon isn't super hard to kill, but you work on the same strategy as Daemons; bring 2000pts of them and cram them into your enemy's craw. Orks are kind of stupidly quick when they want to be (12" Scout in Battlewagons, 12" move, 6" Flat Out, 6" move, D6" Run, 2D6" with Ere We Go charge) and you can usually get a turn 2 charge off; can your opponent kill all of your stuff before turn 2? Often, the answer to that is no.

I'm not offering that as a guaranteed 'you will win all the tournaments ever' tactic, but Orks are not at all bad. I know that from experience.

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The main thing that grinds me is that Orks have so few quality units, yet GW can't even let us keep what we have.
Whereas the main thing that bothers me is that Orks have so few quality players. They're not tournament-winners, as they suck at Maelstrom and can't do anything like Battle Company or Riptide Wing, but they're absolutely the top of the middle tables.

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post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-13-16, 04:49 PM
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I have only ever played orks in 7th, so I can only base what I know on the army as it stands now.

However, I a am well aware of the fragility of orks, and the tactics to deploy to embrace and overcome that. I was pointing out to Rush the downsides of tankbustas as I assumed he didn't know.

But thanks for trying to give tactical advice in a non-patronising, or passive aggressive LTP style.
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post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-13-16, 04:58 PM
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I have only ever played orks in 7th, so I can only base what I know on the army as it stands now.
They're about a billion times better than they were before, take my word for it.

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However, I a am well aware of the fragility of orks, and the tactics to deploy to embrace and overcome that.
Then... why do you complain about it?

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But thanks for trying to give tactical advice in a non-patronising, or passive aggressive LTP style.
Patronising? Moi? On the internet?

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post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-13-16, 11:18 PM
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Because, I felt this aspect of the faq has been an unecessary and disproportionate nerf to the ork codex. Rush presented the opinion that he felt tankbustas were excellent value for points, even now, I was pointing out the downsides and fragility that balance them out whilst making the argument for their specialisation, and the utility of a meta bomb attack per busta.
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post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-14-16, 09:24 AM
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Sure, they don't hit much, but once they do hit a Tank Hunter Krak Missile is very reliable at stripping Hull Points, and it's 130pts for a squad! That's the same as a Devastator Squad with 4 Missile Launchers, which will average the same number of hits but without Tank Hunter!
This is pretty much the angle I was going for, though granted the Dev squad has twice the range and doesn't have to fork out for a transport.

Going back to the Hive Guard comparison, and for the sake of simplicity I'm going to compare four tank bustas (52 points) against a single Hive Guard (55 points). The HG has one better ballistic skill with half the number of shots with worse krak missiles (AP 4? really?!) two extra points of toughness, half the wounds and zero grenades. A HG gets 2 S5 attacks base in CC, that's it. I'd quite cheerfully pay a good whack for a single tank-hunting melta bomb attack, but the idea that you should be getting four of such attacks for 3 points less tends to upset my delicate sensibilities.

I think I have a good grasp on the "downsides" of Tank Bustas, but as a none ork player I may be wrong, and I really appreciate the feedback, so thank you. As per Midnight's comment about Devastators, it's my honest held belief that Tank Busta's are on par (if not better) for their points cost when compared to other armies AT options, and that the multiple grenade ruling was just willful ignorance on the part of 6th edition fanatics.

What I may not have made clear last time, and apologies if it was clear and I'm just labouring the point, is that Tyranids have 3 units with the equivalent of assault grenades in the entire damned codex, zero access to anything resembling a Melta bomb, and the only none-drop transports are the frigging Harridan and Heirophant coming in at a cool 700 and 1050 points respectively (not even open topped, but that's a double edged sword).

You can easily argue that Tyranids are still competetive given their typical tournament rankings, but given that your standard nid tournament list is built around as many TLDWBLW Flyrants as possible (the last one I saw had 6 Flyrants in 1850, with Tzeentch allies >.>. What.) I'd take that with a pinch of salt. I still greatly enjoy Tyranids, but I'm seriously starting to feel the burn of equivalently costed units stomping my units. (Wulfen vs Tyranid Warriors, lol).

I'll also concede that Tyranids are still an older codex, so there may be an update in the future that'll make most of my argument moot, but I'm still not convinced that Tank Bustas are anything less than solid. I do appreciate they are now vastly inferior to their "previous" iteration, but you may have to consider the option that you may have been playing them incorrectly up to now, and this is simply how the GW gods intended grenades to work.

There's been alot of backlash on the facebook FAQ page, I think the grenades section eclipses the comments of any other section, so it will be interesting to see the outcome. I do hope they stick to their guns if this is indeed what they had intended all along, but I'll play it either way, and it will be nice when we're all finally on the same page.
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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-14-16, 05:14 PM
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This is pretty much the angle I was going for, though granted the Dev squad has twice the range and doesn't have to fork out for a transport.
Well, less than twice the threat range as Tankbustas have 6" more movement than Devastators, and I fairly frequently see Devastators kitted out with 2 Heavy Weapons and sat in Rhinos for a bit of protection, but that's just me being devil's advocate.

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There's been alot of backlash on the facebook FAQ page, I think the grenades section eclipses the comments of any other section, so it will be interesting to see the outcome. I do hope they stick to their guns if this is indeed what they had intended all along, but I'll play it either way, and it will be nice when we're all finally on the same page.
Nah, the Dark Eldar crowd are pretty salty on the Jink page that they don't get free 3+ cover in broad daylight any more

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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-14-16, 10:56 PM
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Well, less than twice the threat range as Tankbustas have 6" more movement than Devastators, and I fairly frequently see Devastators kitted out with 2 Heavy Weapons and sat in Rhinos for a bit of protection, but that's just me being devil's advocate.
Excellent point, I really must try this more often.

Though my latest Dev squad build has a Divination Libby with armour of Shadows and a nearby pinion company scout squad to provide ignores cover. Shrouded twin-linked Devs with ignore cover are wunderbar. Ain't the cheapest set up though.

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Nah, the Dark Eldar crowd are pretty salty on the Jink page that they don't get free 3+ cover in broad daylight any more
Hah, I missed that one xD. 134 comments to Jink and 349 comments to Grenades by my count though. Other fan favourites seem to be 219 for Detachments and Formations (Battle Brother problems), 178 on Terrain (apparently people were just ghosting through entire buildings just by taking a terrain test), aaand 128 in Psychic Phase (Presumably to do with the Master Level = Number of powers business).

Do I get points for digressing?
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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-15-16, 11:39 AM
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......I think I have a good grasp on the "downsides" of Tank Bustas, but as a none ork player I may be wrong, and I really appreciate the feedback, so thank you. As per Midnight's comment about Devastators, it's my honest held belief that Tank Busta's are on par (if not better) for their points cost when compared to other armies AT options, and that the multiple grenade ruling was just willful ignorance on the part of 6th edition fanatics......
I would take issue with the assertion that somehow this was willful ignorance, or an attempt to cheat, as for example, I initially was introduced to this ruling by a member of GW staff, and my reading of the rules supported the idea, which seemed reasonable, certainly when applied to orks.

I have to say that I also disagree with you both, for a start, devastators enjoy a 3+ armour save, high leadership, atsknf, and access to all sorts of long range reliable shooting. However, I have laid out my argument, and I'm going to leave it at that.

We shall see what comes out of the FAQ when they ratify it, eventually.
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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-16-16, 12:12 PM
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It is concerning the discordance I've seen with the FAQ and GW Staff Members rulings, but then the "Cast all the psychic powers you want!" falls under that category too. I shouldn't be surprised seen as I've seen the grenade ruling differ from store to store.

Willful ignorance had harsher connotations than I was going for. Shall we say "preferable playstyle" instead? I'm generally only interested in understanding RaW as close as possible to use it as a point of reference from which to forge the narrative. Grenades and Psychic powers were the two rules I liked to clarify before playing anyone new, as while I'm happy playing either way, resolving the issue mid-game could detract from the enjoyment somewhat, and impartial decisions are usually impossible by that point (if they were ever possible at all).

I brought it up, because the RaW debate for multiple grenades is usually based on a poor semantic argument for the word "throw" that is moot as soon as someone opens a dictionary. It's the argument for precedence that actually has some weight, as in 6th edition multiple grenades were unarguably the case, and the stance of "Did they really mean to change that?" really isn't an unreasonable one, especially when it comes to dealing with GW rule sets.

Regardless of which way the decision goes, I can see alot of people still playing their personal interpretation, mostly because it's what they're used to, and it's hopefully what actually works in their meta.

Given the recent surge of Super-Heavies in my local group, I wouldn't be opposed to an extra grenade or two. Orks are Battle Brothers with Tyranids, right?
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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-17-16, 10:48 PM
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Because, I felt this aspect of the faq has been an unecessary and disproportionate nerf to the ork codex. Rush presented the opinion that he felt tankbustas were excellent value for points, even now, I was pointing out the downsides and fragility that balance them out whilst making the argument for their specialisation, and the utility of a meta bomb attack per busta.
And the shooting after Jinking pretty much pummel DE back to the Dark City with no way to return and that's why more harsh than what it's done to your single unit. Consider yourself lucky

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"Bubbles"....?

The Old World just became a fart in the bath.....
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