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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-10-16, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ArkInRev View Post
I've also seen on a lot of forums how "all models getting [insert special grenade] is stupid and useless now"
The only grenade being rightfully declared dead is the Krak. Kraks are only S6. The Krak is an anti-vehicle grenade that has always been balanced to be only truly dangerous to (light) vehicles in larger numbers, giving infantry a chance to mob tanks that got too close and a very, very, very slim one to fight back against a Walker. A single Krak just won't achieve either of those purposes.

Note how you can usually only get ONE Melta bomb on a squad, and have to equip the entire squad with Kraks at 1 pt/model (current Astra Militarum cost) which usually works out to equal or higher cost for the Kraks. In older codices, the cost is higher (Witch Hunters used to get them at 2pts/model).

So yes, Kraks are now stupid and useless. Frags you weren't using in melee anyway, Melta Bombs still work just fine for almost everyone as they only had one in a unit (except those poor Orky Tankbustas... Poor guys had enough issues as it was). Haywires, in all honesty, probably needed a bit of a nerf but I suppose that only really became obvious when cheap Pathfinder units started semi-reliably Glancing 300-400 point Imperial Knights to death.

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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-10-16, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandathe View Post
The only grenade being rightfully declared dead is the Krak. Kraks are only S6. The Krak is an anti-vehicle grenade that has always been balanced to be only truly dangerous to (light) vehicles in larger numbers, giving infantry a chance to mob tanks that got too close and a very, very, very slim one to fight back against a Walker. A single Krak just won't achieve either of those purposes.



Note how you can usually only get ONE Melta bomb on a squad, and have to equip the entire squad with Kraks at 1 pt/model (current Astra Militarum cost) which usually works out to equal or higher cost for the Kraks. In older codices, the cost is higher (Witch Hunters used to get them at 2pts/model).

So yes, Kraks are now stupid and useless. Frags you weren't using in melee anyway, Melta Bombs still work just fine for almost everyone as they only had one in a unit (except those poor Orky Tankbustas... Poor guys had enough issues as it was). Haywires, in all honesty, probably needed a bit of a nerf but I suppose that only really became obvious when cheap Pathfinder units started semi-reliably Glancing 300-400 point Imperial Knights to death.
Good post, put that on the facebook page for the grenades FAQ!

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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ArkInRev View Post
The reason I don't consider this a nerf to anyone, is that I've been playing 1 grenade in the assault the entire time.

I've also seen on a lot of forums how "all models getting [insert special grenade] is stupid and useless now" Ignoring my above statement that I think it's been that way all of 7th edition: It's still nice to have more than one model that can plant the melta bomb or toss the krak grenade. I'd rather throw 1 haywire grenade or plant one melta bomb as long as something is alive in the unit, rather than have to protect the ball carrier. Of course points are a consideration, but just throwing that counter point at it.
You might not consider it a nerf, but I, and a huge amount of players who relied on meta bombs to take down tough targets like knights certainly do.
Orks had to sacrifice 3 attacks on the charge for one single meta bomb each, under the meta bomb rules it is an attack per model, and that seemed fair and reasonable for a specialised unit like the bustas. There is no ranged profile for a melta bomb, its a bomb not a grenade, itll never be thrown but now it's been lumped in with krak grenade abuse, it's how I always played it, how everyone in my local club and store played it, and how it was played at the tournaments I attended.
It's not like it was an easy thing to do, to maneuver a 5-10 man unit across the battlefield in a flimsy truck, leap out and successfully assault a Knight. Pulling that off meant you deserved to take that knight to the ground.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 10:28 AM
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Good post, put that on the facebook page for the grenades FAQ!
No Facebook account, and I'm not going to make one after succesfully avoiding it for years Feel free to add it there.

Point of math in addition because of @R_Squared going 'Krak abuse':

Even the lowliest transport has AV10 in the back. A squad armed with Krak grenades needs a 3+ to hit (Vehicles count as WS1) and then a 4+ added to the Krak's S6, so only using a single of these anti-vehicle grenades you have a 2 in 3 chance of not doing anything at all.

It gets worse when attacking a Walker, attacking something like a Dreadnought which has equal (or higher) WS that can keep its higher Front armour to you. Your chances with a Guardsman or Space Marine squad of glancing a Dreadnought with a Krak are a mere 1 in 12 (4+ to hit, then 6+ to get the Krak through AV12) and you can't do more than that.

I have NO idea how using every model's Krak grenade in CC would count as abuse. These things are supposed to make infantry dangerous to light vehicles, and that's only ever going to happen by using a large number of the things.


Math on Haywire grenades and Imperial Knights, aka why I suspect this is all their fault:
If allowed to use every model, both Tau Pathfinders and the more expensive Eldar's Swooping Hawks will hit an Imperial Knight on a 4+ (SH Exarch on a 3+, but ignore him), then have a 2/3rd chance to Glance plus a 1/6 chance to Penetrate. Maxed out Squads (10 members) are thus likely to take most of the Hull Points off an Imperial Knight, but need a bit of luck to actually kill it in one round (Especially since Overwatch may cause losses, and the Pathfinders go AFTER the Knight's regular attacks).

With the mobility of both, Pathfinders having Scout and Swooping Hawks being Jump Infantry, this is probably the most cost-effective and reliable way to do a lot of damage to an Imperial Knight quickly.

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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 10:46 AM
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^ what's the rough estimate points cost for these Knight popping units?

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 11:05 AM
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Krak abuse was probably a bit strong, in my defence I am pretty pissed off about the really very solid nerf that we've suffered, yet again.

As to points cost, one truck full of 10x tankbustas and a nob with no bomb squigs and a reinforced ram?
193 points.

For a unit as fragile, but as lethal as it was, that was well worth it. You could strip off a couple of Hull with some lucky shooting on the way in, and if you weren't exploded and mob ruled to death, you could wreck face very effectively.

Usually though it's a 5 man mob, no nob in a truck, for about 100 points, but if you got hit by literally anything from bolters upwards, the unit is gone.

I tended to run my bust as in 2 mobs of 10, with squigs, in the slightly more resilient gunwagon for about 150 points a go. 2 of those would most likely take on a knight, but I would lose at least one wagon and most likely a large wedge of Boyz.
Lots of people would run 3 trucks with a bare mob of 5 bustas in each, so roughly 300 points devoted to taking on heavy and super heavy machinery and tough stuff.

Not exactly the most OP units in the game.

Last edited by R_Squared; 05-11-16 at 11:22 AM.
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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 02:19 PM
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You can still use 2 krak grenades on most turns, so that's something. And, they work against monstrous creatures, so that's also a thing.

Of the FAQ out so far, the two little tidbits of clarifications that seemingly hurt the weakest armies still have some hope of errata when their codex gets an FAQ. Maybe Orks should be able to use all of their grenades because orks, and maybe Dark Eldar should be able to shoot from a transport that jinks at full BS because Dark Legolas.

Edit: Don't hold your breath on those hopes though.
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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 05:19 PM
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^ what's the rough estimate points cost for these Knight popping units?
Haywire Melee (now nerfed to hell):
Full Pathfinder squad plus grenades: 130 points (variety of other upgrades available, season to taste)
Full Swooping Hawks squad: 160
While not extremely cheap, note both of these have a number of other uses they can be put to, you're more likely to see/use two smaller squads.
Curious note: The Swooping Hawks can still (each!) make S4AP4 Haywire attacks on flying stuff they move over. They're trained to kill Flyers that way with their Haywire grenades... and it seems most of them now forget they have them OUTSIDE the Movement phase.

Melta bomb melee (also nerfed to hell)
Tankbusta Squad - see @R_Squared 's post

Point of order, if you want to gib an Imperial Knight, the Sororitas still have you covered.
Repentia Squad - 155 points. Their 9 Eviscerators (Think two-handed power fist) with 2 attacks each (3 on the charge) WILL see the job done. They do not, however, have the mobility of the above units to get near the Knight - no Scout SR, no Jump packs, and no open-topped (or Assault-Ramped) transports.

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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 05:43 PM
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It's 2016 and people still think that Imperial Knights are hard to kill?

What a time to be alive.

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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 05-11-16, 06:41 PM
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Point of order, if you want to gib an Imperial Knight, the Sororitas still have you covered.
Blood Angels do it nice with meltaguns in a Drop Pod. It's one of the only 'competitive' things the Codex offers: 135 points for 4x melta shots provided you can disembark with your sergeant within 3" for the shorter range of inferno pistols. I like to spread them out against two armour facings on a Knight; it rarely kills them but it puts the hurt on pretty reliably.

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It's 2016 and people still think that Imperial Knights are hard to kill?
Thanks to the above combined with the typical amount of melta/lascannons in my army I've never had an issue but maybe that's because I play marines, eh? I mean...they're the most ill-equipped marines, but they're still marines.

Unfortunately Canada got rid of the penny and now my two cents rounds down to zero, so...take it for what you will.

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