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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 09:42 AM
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Quoting me here...

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Things like Tzeentch armies of old relied on the fact that every unit of horrors shot fireballs. The trouble seems to be stemming from people claiming an army had a very very large amount of dice and used to make more units for more dice. But as I have said in several threads (including this one I think), that if you are spending all your dice on making new units you aren't killing anyone with them. It would be like having a fully loaded predator / vindicator / leman russ and choosing not to fire the gun because you prefer tank shocking everything.

If you threw this example at another army it would say be a guard army. You have chosen to give up all those lasguns, heavy weapon supports so in essence sacrificed all your shooting with all your guns and replaced them with walky talkys (E.T. reference there)... but you can get 25% pts of guardsmen each turn, or unarmed guardsmen who can also help summon more.
Sure you will have mass numbers at the end of the battle potentially, but the likely chance is your enemy has actually caused more damage to you than you can summon, and because you aren't doing any damage to him they will win the game of attrition. Not to mention that just having loads of models doesn't always net you objectives and there seems to be a load more of them now.

In effect the Tzeentch fireballing army is heavily nurfed because your chance to actually cast your spells used to be over 91% pass rate regardless of using flickering fire at WC 3. NOW casting the same spell if left to just the dice they generate themselves they will only succeed 14% of the time...
If you go for the WC3 version and you add 2 dice from your spare pool it goes up to 50%, add another dice an it is 66%, but that is burning a whole secondary units power to cast a spell that in 6th you could have had 82% to cast both, and 99.19% to have just cast 1 of the 2 between them.

Of course the deny the witch thing is slightly different as well, and rather than just needing the one roll of 5+/6+ that they could roll regardless. They now have to manage the dice they have to try to roll enough 5+/6+ rolls to stop the spell. So on mass casting with loads of dice, unless your opponent also has loads you should get loads going through.
So yeah as everyone is pointing out, yeah they can summon armies from armies who summon armies... But actually the chance is low and the models you make are delayed in actually taking part in the battle as they deep strike so cant charge on that turn.

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Here's the kicker, that's just primaris malefic spell, you can continue to summon blood crushers, screamers, or seekers
Isn't it Hounds, Flamers, Nurglings & Seekers? or has it changed since the posting of the cards on this forum by Zion here https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...&postcount=492 ?
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 10:30 AM
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At which point Fateweaver collapses on his T5 4+ butt and the plan goes tits-up.
Well, yeah, but running a Cursed Earth near Fatey gives him a very respectable 3++ rerolling 1s. The point of that combo is that it makes your stuff hard to kill.

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Yeah, you can get to 3++, but you could do that throughout 6th with a Skyshield and Mark of Tzeentch and nobody did it so I highly doubt it'll break the game.
And you still can on units like Havocs. My FLGS wasn't happy with that interpretation of the rules, saying MoT didn't apply to an external save like the Skyshield's (which I think is rubbish, but I'm not going to alienate my local gaming group and don't want to be That Guy, so I'll go along with it). The nice thing about these 3++es is that they're mobile, and so can go on assaulty units.

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So... a hugely expensive unit of dudes who are as tough as 14pt Marines who rely on a random Psychic Power with a 12" range to be useful, the purpose of which is to cause a Blind check (which most armies will pass or not care about), and then charge people despite having no grenades so they strike last? I think that's a really awful plan, but if you can find a way to make it work then by all means enlighten me (I know I sound cynical, but I honestly do want Warp Talons to be even vaguely viable - them models and fluff are great!)
They are in no way competitive. They are, however, much more reliable and can take advantage of certain special rule opportunities they did not have before. They've always been something to run in non-competitive lists, and so this nice little synergy, so perfectly paired to their weaknesses, makes them more effective, less fragile, and therefore possibly even viable.

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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 07:32 PM
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Summoning most things are useless unless you can get at least 2 of them off a turn at which point you are spending a fair amount of points, T3 5++ its really easy to kill, and a herald cannot join a unit until the next turn so in most cases will just die. Granted it takes the firepower away from something else but certainly in smaller you aren't going to get that much. Bloodcrushers may be useful T4 W4 and you get three of them so ho know with that but most things aren't going to last, especially with the ridiculous amount of dice you will need to do it.

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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 07:39 PM
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Summoning most things are useless unless you can get at least 2 of them off a turn at which point you are spending a fair amount of points, T3 5++ its really easy to kill, and a herald cannot join a unit until the next turn so in most cases will just die. Granted it takes the firepower away from something else but certainly in smaller you aren't going to get that much. Bloodcrushers may be useful T4 W4 and you get three of them so ho know with that but most things aren't going to last, especially with the ridiculous amount of dice you will need to do it.
Pretty sure Bloodcrushers only have three wounds each.

But yes - as our games today proved, using Malefic to summon a bunch of Daemons doesn't really work with 2 Mastery 3 Sorcerors (even with one with Prophet of the Voices to avoid Perils) as you simply can't push through enough casts to get a horde of Daemons. They just end up being easy combat victories (and therefore easy extra movement) for your opponent.

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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 09:44 PM
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One question that come to mind for me: Do Conjuration units coming in count as coming in from Deep Strike Reserve? The book only says conjured units "Deep Strike," and yet Flying Monstrous Creatures must Swoop when entering play from Deep Strike Reserve. Cursed Earth only prevents scatter for daemon units coming in from Deep Strike Reserve. Do summoned Bloodthirsters/Lords of Change not have the opportunity to Swoop the turn they come in? Does Cursed Earth not prevent scatter of summoned Daemonology units--kind of counter-intuitive for a Daemonology power whose design focus seems to be focused on reducing some of the unreliableness of summoning Daemons...
In the second paragraph of the Conjuration Power description on page 26, the sentence fragment that immediately follows the bolded portion about deepstriking and range specifically states that the new unit is treated as having arrived from reserves for all purposes, so I believe Cursed Earth, Icons of Chaos and the like should work for preventing Deep Strike scatter, which is nice. With regard to someone else's comment on Heralds, the amount of pts they get for upgrades is exactly enough for the Grimoire or the Portalglyph, so as long as you havent already included those items in your army, you get some nice kit and another psyker (if a Herald of Tzeentch anyway) for the cost of a model that is presumably around 9pts or so

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-26-14, 10:57 PM
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With regard to someone else's comment on Heralds, the amount of pts they get for upgrades is exactly enough for the Grimoire or the Portalglyph, so as long as you havent already included those items in your army, you get some nice kit and another psyker (if a Herald of Tzeentch anyway) for the cost of a model that is presumably around 9pts or so
Do bear in mind that characters can only join units in the movement phase and can only lay down the Portalglyph/use Grimoire in the movement phase as well, so a canny opponent will take out your 2W, T3 model the turn it comes in before it can join any unit or use its fancy gear. You can try to hide them as they come in, but if you don't have a scatter-reduction method.. no guarantee that the Herald won't scatter out into the open.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-27-14, 02:22 AM
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I wasnt saying that it would be a good idea, as of course as you have pointed out, it is easy to kill them, I was simply mentioning that the pts limit for Herald-upgrades allowed the Grimoire/Portalglyph to be taken. At the same time, it is better to have the Grimoire/Portalglyph on the table and ensconced in a unit to begin the game, otherwise they arent there for the movement phase and the player gets less potential uses out of them. In the end, the 30pts is probably better spent on an extra Mastery Level or something

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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-27-14, 01:56 PM
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Pretty sure Bloodcrushers only have three wounds each.

But yes - as our games today proved, using Malefic to summon a bunch of Daemons doesn't really work with 2 Mastery 3 Sorcerors (even with one with Prophet of the Voices to avoid Perils) as you simply can't push through enough casts to get a horde of Daemons. They just end up being easy combat victories (and therefore easy extra movement) for your opponent.
My mistake it is 3. But still the deamons most likely to survive a turn are bloodcrushers as they are T4 which is harder to kill or plaguebearers, for the same reason but the also have shrouded (though less offensive capability than bloodcrushers).

It also didn't help you had some uncanny rolling of 6s....

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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-27-14, 04:13 PM
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So if you play with any LOS blocking terrain at all, like you should do, then you can replace the Grimoire or Portalglyph whenever it dies?

That's hilarious.

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My mistake it is 3. But still the deamons most likely to survive a turn are bloodcrushers as they are T4 which is harder to kill or plaguebearers, for the same reason but the also have shrouded (though less offensive capability than bloodcrushers).

It also didn't help you had some uncanny rolling of 6s....
Tyranid Warriors with a 5++ and no armour save are not hard to kill. Hell, a single Devastator Squad with Missile Launchers will rip right through them. Or a Battle Cannon, or a squad of Meltas, or like a single Tactical Squad.

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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-27-14, 04:29 PM
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So if you play with any LOS blocking terrain at all, like you should do, then you can replace the Grimoire or Portalglyph whenever it dies?
Don't have the Daemon dex open, but pretty sure says you may only take one of them in your army, not that you can only have one on the field at any time. Taking it once counts as having bought the unique item, insofar as I remember it...

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