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post #31 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 08:17 AM Thread Starter
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Umm. Sorry, I know this is going to sound really condescending over the internet, and I wish I had a nicer way to put this....

Have you really thought about what I've been saying, or are these snap responses?

I use models with more then one weapon because it specifically clarifies they have to pick one, which is where all the various wording and rules come in. The combat familiar grants you two extra str 4 ap - attacks. I assume a model with multiple weapons so we have a grounding point that all of his attacks have to be modified by that weapon, which is the entire basis of my argument. Having to pick a weapon doesn't break or ruin anything about what I talk about.

We could assume one weapon models (dp with mace, let's say), but now I don't have a rules section that says that I have to use that weapon with every attack I make. Because I don't have that, I'm choosing to base my argument elsewhere, so that I have a grounding to work with, which is important for rules discussion.

Again, I'm sure this sounds really condescending, and I wish I had a nicer way to write this (sometimes I'm a tad blunt....), but I think you're getting caught up on me basing it with models with multiple weapons. I'm not arguing the CF is a weapon. It's TECHNICALLY not relevant, except for the fact I don't have a section to point to for models with one. It's just implicit, and I want to make sure there's a clear rules path for every step of this.
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post #32 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 09:09 AM
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mmh. You make some damn good points...i'll ask to my meta their opinion.

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post #33 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 10:01 AM
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::Looks back at Fallen's post....... Verifies that he answered the one melee weapon question and even used the DP example....... Wanders back off again::

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post #34 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 10:41 AM
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Because people don't agree with your incorrect assumption of the rules, they are wrong? This isn't sheeep following the herd, this is 2+2=4.

What you are saying is essentially 2+2=0 because one of the two's COULD be a negative. Yes it could be, but that is not what the ruoes/equation says.

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post #35 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 04:52 PM
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Kruse, here's the crux of it:

You are saying that you get to modify the Combat Familiar's attacks by the effects of the weapon that the owner is wielding.

You are NOT proving that the Combat Familiar's attacks should be modified by the weapon.

RULES AS WRITTEN state: The model with the familiar makes two attacks at S4 AP-. Done. Nothing about modified by current weapons or wargear.

Also remember that Codex always supersedes BRB.

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post #36 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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Xabre, the only tools I have to do that are the ones that I've already laid out about models making attacks, and how all attacks are made with melee weapons. A relatively simple question that i pose then, for the argument that they just don't get modified by what weapon your wielding... then what weapon are they modified by for the combat familiar? All attacks (and specifically attacks) are made with a melee weapon. It's why you can't use a shooting attack in close combat. Saddly, I actually can't find a specific rule anywhere that actually says attacks are made with weapons. It seems incredibly implicit, but of course not having a rule i can post to for this one hurts my case.

What I can say on that note, is that free hits are not attacks and therefore are not bound by needing a weapon (vector strike, hammer of wrath, etc), and models without a weapon of the melee subtype are assumed to have a single CCW. These facts combined make it something that can be easily agreed on, though. If you want to debate that part, I'd be happy to.

Anyways, assuming that all attacks must be made with a weapon of the melee subtype in CC, then what weapon do you use for the combat familiar, if not the one the model who purchased it is always swinging with? If you made them as they start out, which is str 4 ap -, you're using a CCW (it has no modifiers, and no special rules). Well, what if it's huron blackheart doing that? Huron doesn't even have a CCW on his statline, and he has a weapon of the melee subtype, so he can't just pick to use a free CCW anyways. And, even if he could, it would be violating the "more then one weapon" subsection of the weapon section in the rulebook, because he's now mixing weapons for his attacks, AND he's doing it with a weapon he doesn't have.

In summary, the crux of my argument (put simply) is that the rulebook says that you have to pick a weapon in close combat, and EVERY attack that you make has to be modified by the weapon you pick. The combat familiar says you make attacks. Therefore, you apply all rules for making attacks for that model, such as using his WS, Init, and his weapon modifiers for those attacks, because they follow the same rules and wording out of the BRB.
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post #37 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 11:00 PM
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A very interesting argument indeed. Should you be right, my Juggylord would get 9+D6 attacks on the charge with a combat familiar .

Ultimately, whether or not we agree, it's not like we can give some definitive answer. Maybe those lazy fucks will get around to updating ambiguous rules and answering questions some time before the next edition hits. I'm sure you know this and you're asking for the sake of argument, but it's sort of an exercise in futility.


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post #38 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-05-14, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by koolkruse View Post
See, I was trying to find a way for my dp with the black mace to use a normal CCW on the turn he charges, swap to the mace on my opponents, sweep them on that turn, and hop scotch through the enemy army. I can almost do it, but he doesn't have a ccw to swap to....Because arguing that the writers don't know what they are doing and you do is silly, and only viable in cases of game breakdown, let's keep this to rules as written)
Just looking at your original post, it seems you want this to work so bad so you can do just as you described above to you opponents. Just put yourself in the other players shoes and wonder how he feels when you try to tell him what you want to do though a half hour study of two rule books and multiple sections so you can gain an advantage?

Then look as what you said about sticking to the rules written...

Take the description of the attack s4 ap- literally and that what you get plain and simple.

Also, compare this to the hammer of wrath attack, it says that this is a users S ap- auto hit attack, in the FAQ it states that no special rules of the models weapon are transferred to this attack...

In all good sportsmanship I would just go with s4 ap- in addition to your attacks... If you win combat and have to take a round of shooting then that's how the cookie crumbles...
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post #39 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-06-14, 12:21 AM
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People need to remember that this a play for fun game not a play to win. If you are going to try and warp the rules for your benefit then you shouldn't be playing at all! What Troy and some other members is true. You get two bonus strength 4 ap- attacks and nothing else. It's as simple as that!
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post #40 of 41 (permalink) Old 02-06-14, 12:37 AM
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I am actually kinda shocked that this has four pages so far ... it gives you the STR and AP of said attacks. How is there any sort of way to justify any modification to what they have in the rules listing? I just do not see it.
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