The combat familiar - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Rules Discussion Post any Warhammer 40k rules queries and discussions here.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 12:54 PM
ZOMGZOR CUSTOM USER TITLE
 
scscofield's Avatar
scscofield's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 6,195
Reputation: 56
Default

I agree with Vaz, it flat out states that you make 2 str4 ap- attacks with it.

http://i.imgur.com/aPfHUHy.gif?1




scscofield is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 02:24 PM
Senior Member
 
the_barwn's Avatar
the_barwn's Flag is: Great Britain
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Maidstone
Posts: 393
Reputation: 4
Default

I thought that the familiar for Hurons special ability was to grant him random psychic powers??


Quote:
Originally Posted by normtheunsavoury View Post
"Hey! I just made a full suit of tactical dreadnought armour!"

"Cool! Does it work?"

"Well, my virginity now has a 2+ invulnerable save so yeah, kinda did "
the_barwn is offline  
post #13 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 33
Reputation: 2
Default

It is not a weapon. It is not clarified as a melee weapon. No where in it's entry does it say that you treat it as being made with a separate weapon with that statline. In fact, it specifically clarifies that they are attacks, not hits with a set statline. And attacks are made with weapons.

As for a strict "you read it and that's what you get" interpretation, the entire point of this post, and my arguments, is that when you look at what the words mean in context of the brb, what the sentence does drastically changes. So, strict reading and what you get is another way you could interpret it.... but I've already laid out that just making them str 4 and ap - is illegal. Unless your lord just has a ccw...... OH god the horror of a chaos lord with nothing but a ccw....


Huron's familiar does give him random psychic powers. It is also a combat familiar.

Last edited by koolkruse; 01-29-14 at 05:28 PM.
koolkruse is offline  
 
post #14 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 05:39 PM
Vaz
Senior Member
 
Vaz's Avatar
Vaz's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 12,830
Reputation: 79
Default

You wanted a discussion.

You got the RAW answer.

You don't like it, don't whinge. Play it how you want.

Have a nice day.



100% free webcam site! | Awesome chicks and it is absolutely free! | Watch free live sex cam - easy as 1-2-3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bindi Baji View Post
It's not a black and white question really, there are different shades of anal probing,
a rectum spectrum, if you will
Vaz is offline  
post #15 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 05:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Xabre's Avatar
Xabre's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,848
Reputation: 72
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by koolkruse View Post
It is not a weapon. It is not clarified as a melee weapon. No where in it's entry does it say that you treat it as being made with a separate weapon with that statline. In fact, it specifically clarifies that they are attacks, not hits with a set statline. And attacks are made with weapons.

As for a strict "you read it and that's what you get" interpretation, the entire point of this post, and my arguments, is that when you look at what the words mean in context of the brb, what the sentence does drastically changes. So, strict reading and what you get is another way you could interpret it.... but I've already laid out that just making them str 4 and ap - is illegal. Unless your lord just has a ccw...... OH god the horror of a chaos lord with nothing but a ccw....


Huron's familiar does give him random psychic powers. It is also a combat familiar.

I believe the simplest answer here is: If the Combat Familiar gives you two additional attacks that are completely modified by whatever weapon you are wielding, why bother giving it a statline? Why not just say +2 attacks? As you yourself said, if you're stating it's S4 Ap- simply because that's the default for a Lord with only a CCW... again, +2 Attacks ends the issue.

By the very fact that the familiar has stats for its attack, it dictates the attacks.

Xabre is offline  
post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 06:06 PM
Senior Member
 
Gret79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,629
Reputation: 14
Default

I've re-read the rules for this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Page 67 Chaos Codex
A model with a combat familiar makes two additional st4 ap- melee attacks
I don't see how Huron gets round that on reflection. Its Raw for him - they're just bonus attacks.

The argument I've seen before for the demon prince is because it has the smash special rule as its a monstrous creature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRB page 42
All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath attacks, of a model with this special rule are resolved at ap2 (unless it's attacking with an ap1 weapon)
This is the same reasoning that allows the Black Mace to work at ap2

So yeah, imo, Vaz and Scsofield are right on this.
But I don't do either. The Black Mace DP is quite enough already without trying that on too
Gret79 is offline  
post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 33
Reputation: 2
Default

As for why to bother giving it a statline, if you look back at the section that I use for RAI (this is where this is starting to near towards), which is that maybe Phil wanted it to be functionally +2 attacks on a chaos lord or other marine model, but not be so intense on a demon prince. So, he wrote it so they just make two attacks at strength 4 to make sure marines got the +2 while not demon princes.

And, it dictates a start position. The other question I pose is.... if not the weapon the bearer wields, what weapon do you use for the attacks the combat familiar makes? The base one, so the attacks are now made with a close combat weapon? In that case, we now have a model using two different melee weapons at the same time, mixing and matching, and he may not even have a ccw to use in the first place (huron).

Edit: It's also worth noting that this post should have probably been called "thoughts on the combat familiar" because this is in an in depth and detailed look at what happens when a model makes attacks vs the wording on the familiar itself. Looking at things simply or at face value isn't really the objective here. It's also not as if having to research something in detail means that it's not correct, it just means it's not readily apparent.

Last edited by koolkruse; 01-29-14 at 06:15 PM.
koolkruse is offline  
post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 07:00 PM
ZOMGZOR CUSTOM USER TITLE
 
scscofield's Avatar
scscofield's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Finger Lakes Region of NY
Posts: 6,195
Reputation: 56
Default

If it was as your want it it would say 2 additional attacks. It doesn't say that though, it specifically states what those attacks are. Even the shortened rules of the back page foldout defines it as 2 str4 sp- attacks. Even on a DP it would be this.

Edit:
The issue here is the part that you went YADA YADA about in your OP. The combat familiar is a separate source of attacks sharing the same space as the model it is attached to. It is not a extra melee weapon on the main model.

http://i.imgur.com/aPfHUHy.gif?1





Last edited by scscofield; 01-29-14 at 07:32 PM.
scscofield is offline  
post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-29-14, 08:29 PM
Senior Member
 
Creon's Avatar
Creon's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 4,166
Reputation: 16
Default

I think I'll just avoid the Combat Familiar and not make my head hurt. I would say if an attack has it's own statline, that's how it works. But clearly others disagree.
Creon is offline  
post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old 01-30-14, 03:33 AM
Senior Moderator
 
DeathKlokk's Avatar
DeathKlokk's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 5,719
Reputation: 20
Default

Others are wrong, though. There ya go Creon, no headache!

Seriously, it's just two more to-hit rolls with the statline given.

Strange, but not a Stranger.
DeathKlokk is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Rules Discussion

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome