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post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-15-13, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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A game came up with a few questions I couldn't find answers to...

1) Wave Serpent gets "weapon destroyed" result. Is the shield attack a possible thing to lose? If yes, I assume only the attack ability is lost?

2) If a barrage's hole is centered on a model in area terrain, does it still get area terrain cover? (Area terrain is cover from all directions, but there is no area terrain between source and target)

2a) While searching for that last that last one, I saw two threads about night-fight and barrage... each thread ended with a different answer about whether stealth/shrouded is granted. The rules do directly contradict each other, in fact an argument could be made for each that it explicitly overrules the other... Thoughts?

3) 1 unit cannot disembark and embark from a transport on the same turn - this is clear. But can one transport be disembarked from, and then have a new unit embark on it, in the same turn?
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post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-15-13, 01:21 PM
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1. No, it is not listed as a "weapon" per say. Think of it like Bladevanes. It's equipment that can hurt the enemy.
2. Yes. It jsut has to be in the terrain to receive the save. Nothing else.
2a. Barrage doesn't change the range to target so Night Fight still works.

3. Yes they can.

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post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-15-13, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks! That's how we interpreted 1,2 and 3, but I wanted to double check we weren't missing anything explicitly spelled out somewhere.

For 2a, I will say I'm not convinced though. BRB 34: "To determine whether a unit... is allowed a cover save... always assume the shot is coming from the center of the blast marker instead of from the firing model."

"Coming from" could easily be range as well as direction, it's certainly reads as if the location of the firing model is irrelevant for determining cover.

Night fight says specifically (BRB 124) to measure "from the firing unit to the original target" for an attack that scatters, which could easily be talking about only non-barrage blasts, or it could be specifically trying to override the barrage rule.

I guess I'm looking for someone to really break down the logic in a ruling on that one to convince me either way, which may not be possible
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post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-15-13, 04:53 PM
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The two rules are not as complicated as you are making it out to be, and I am guessing you were the the one shooting a barrage weapon into cover at night...but I digress.

Cover saves are granted when the model being shot at has something between it and the firer. Since the barrage weapon is shot up and over the intervening object is rendered irrelevant. The barrage special rule specifically overrides the cover saves rule.

Night Fighting is literally the representation of fighting at night. The Stealth and Shrouded are granted at different distances not due to the fact that there might be intervening objects at different ranges but due to the fact that the distance away with no light could result in the shot being way off its mark. It's the same reason intervening models give cover saves: it's not that the model literally got in the way but it could have blocked the line of sight long enough for the firer to miss his shot. We always assume that the models shoot at whatever all the time, but the rule explains that it is possible the firer never fired at all and the best way to represent this is a cover save. The same goes for Night Fighting, the fact that the projectile would go up and over the intervening terrain/models/objects doesn't remove the fact that the firer could have never fired not being convinced that thing he saw move was an enemy and not a squirrel.
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post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-15-13, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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The night fight cover vs. barrage never came up in my game (although it almost did, until I remembered I'd spent the points for night vision), so I don't have a horse in the race... I just saw disagreeing statements on Heresy threads I was searching and I got curious.

All of your explanation for night fight is the same explanation they use for any cover save at all, not just night fight... ie. of course your futuristic death-ray gun can shoot through wooden walls, but because you might not see your target and therefore never have fired, the wall grants a cover save. Barrage weapons that land behind the wall ignore that save, so why not night fight?

Having said all that as a devil's advocate, I'm still leaning towards barrage being affected by night fight. I'm just not ready to call this "case closed."
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post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-16-13, 09:21 AM
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The biggest thing you are missing is that even if something doesn't get a cover save it would still get stealth/shrouded from being a certain distance away from the firer because Night Fighting doesn't itself grant a cover save. Barrage special rule only refers to determining if someone would get a cover save but says nothing about ignoring NightnFighting. Remember, stealth/shrouded doesn't grant a cover save, unless the model doesn't already have one (and if you want to get all word mincy it doesn't even give you one then it improves your cover save from a 0 to a 6/5+). So a model 25" away hiding behind a ruin would get a 2+ save from a regular weapon but a 4+ from a barrage weapon. You even said it before, if the shot scatters you use the distance from the firing unit to the original target and says NOTHING about if it is a barrage. Since neither rule says specifically that barrage weapons count the Night Fighting distance from the center of the blast then it doesn't.

Very simply the Night Fighting rule says that when the target is ancertain distance away from the firer they are treated as having stealth/shrouded. There is no other condition, no exceptions. Measure from firer to target barrage or not. Case closed. Devils advocate and absent a horse in the race or not the rules do not support your arguments.

Last edited by psactionman; 09-16-13 at 09:30 AM.
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post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-16-13, 04:00 PM
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Would you be able to fire a Barrage weapon during Night Fight at a target more than 36" away? If you answer no, then shouldn't the other aspects of Night Fight apply as well?

See Magpie's response for the answer.

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post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-16-13, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Psaction you're really just highlighting the contradiction from one end... Allow me to highlight the other. Barrage weapons specifically say to count the shot as coming from the center of the blast marker and never the model. "There is no condition, no exceptions."

Iron, the range override explicitly stated in the barrage rules only comes into effect after the shot is fired. All aspects of nightlight are therefore still applying. If the blast had a 15" radius, but the center of the blast was 13" away from the target, it would still get stealth.
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post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 09-16-13, 11:00 PM
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There is no contradiction. You are reading it wrong. It says for determining if the model gets a cover save you go from the center and that is it. In no other circumstance do you go from the center. It's a permissive rule set and you do not have specific permission to use the center of the blast marker to determine Night Fighting distance.
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