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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 01:04 PM Thread Starter
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Default Decorated Bases and Line of Sight.

Ok, so Im not here to start any absolutely mental discussions about this. I'm hoping that I get a few replies, reasonable opinions and maybe even some official clarification would be nice!

Anyway, this all started when I made a lictor recently, and I wanted to do him hiding in amongst some debris and all camoflaged. I was pretty happy with the end result. Then someone asked me if the stuff on the base would block line of sight...

... So my immediate response was, dont be rediculous, of course it doesnt. I'd previously looked at my model and decided that its easy enough to see its silhouette amongst the stuff. Out of interrest though I started trying to find the official clarification in the rules, then thats when my adventure got a bit nuts.

To me, its as simple as... dont play with idiots and psychotic people who desperately try to exploit every rule they can. But I cant for the life of my find any clarification for this. The rules say on page 8 that a model has to be able to draw a straight line of sight to another models body (head, torso, legs or arms) to count as having line of sight. It specifies that other things dont count, guns, banners, wings, tails and antennae as examples of the fact that we shouldnt punish impressively posed models.

There is a bit under coversaves that say that stuff on bases do not give you cover saves, but thats it. My worry is that out there there is some lunatic that has put his converted model in a bin, with just his eyes poking out from under the lid... stating that, he can see the enemy so he can shot them, but unless somone can see the teeny tine bit of his head that is exposed they cant draw a line of sight to his 'body'. Thats not a cover save, thats a magic bin of invisibility.

Anyone every had experience with other people stretching the rules when it comes to converted models? Has everyone been fortunate enough to be dealing with rational people? Can somone find somewhere on the website or in the offical rules that says something along the lines of... 'of course your base's scenic tufts of grass dont block line of sight to your crouching sniper you mental man'.

I'm just curious that theres not more in the about line of sight being obstructed by converted models. Or maybe there is and I've missed it.

My friend said what about "the most importent rule" on page 4, if you cant agree, 4+ it. I told him he's an idiot because a 50/50 bin of invisibility is still a MAGIC BIN OF INVISIBILITY.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 02:43 PM
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Ask him why won't he build little walls around each model and claim you can't shoot at them at all. Sheesh, that's kinda ridiculous...

I can't recall where, but I've seen it somewhere - decorations on the model's base are only decorations, they are ignored when they get in the way. Just like, say, Familiars in Chaos Space Marines codex - they can even be modelled on their own bases, but they are ignored or even put aside if they get in the way.

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 06:25 PM
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To me, the model is everything on the base. I count decorations as part of the model... and if anyone tried to claim a cover save because they model had stuff in the way on their base I would stop playing with them.

Although... now that I think about it for a second, this would be a cool way to show that a unit has stealth or shrouded.

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 06:47 PM
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No stuff on a base doesn't count for LoS or cover saves, I have seen awesome Ork Kommando conversions before such as one with a bush with arms and legs or a rubbish bin with eyes popping out, as long as it is clear where the model is and you can see the silhouette (which you have) it should be fine, if not then you will have to use the shape of the whole model otherwise people will get pissy about modelling for advantage

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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 07:10 PM
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I define cheating as abusing or ignoring the rules to gain an unfair advantage... this works pretty well for cases such as this as if someone is modelling for advantage then they are cheating.

When I've converted a model and there are possible benefits to how I've changed it I just work with the worst of both worlds: say I've modelled a marine kneeling down I'll draw LoS from his current position but assume he's at full height for return fire. Little things like this don't normally alter the game so there is little point arguing over them but if someone is such a rules lawyer that they do then even if you can disprove them on this count then you know they'll have umpteen more up their sleeve; its probably time to pack you models away and go find someone else to play.

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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 10:16 PM
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The most bizarre example of this I can recall was a Miniwargaming batrep a while back where a visiting Guard player had modeled all his Heavy Weapon Teams on bases that integrated big metal oil tanks of various heights so they could see over the battlefield. Seemed very dodgy to me but the unflappable Matt barely batted an eyelid.

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-26-13, 11:01 PM
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I think it would be fair that if someone has modelled barrels onto their bases and are using them to gain extra height for LoS that you insist they are all fuel barrels and play them as such (if you pass a cover save they might explode)... sounds good to me.

I get annoyed any time people model for a purpose other then 'making things look cool'. People abusing modelling means that innocent people who've done something because they thought it would be cool get queried when its just not necessary. It just seems that someone always takes something too far and it ruins it for the rest of us.

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-27-13, 01:18 AM
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Abusing the rules like that would grant the the player a 2+ re-rollable save against me ever playing them again.

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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-27-13, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Azwaz View Post
My friend said what about "the most importent rule" on page 4, if you cant agree, 4+ it. I told him he's an idiot because a 50/50 bin of invisibility is still a MAGIC BIN OF INVISIBILITY.
Open rule book to page 18.
Show him page 18 while you slam pages 19-434 closed onto his nose.

I can see that overly ornate basing might make tracing LOS difficult but to suggest that it has any impact beyond the visual is just dumb.
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-29-13, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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The model that brought all this to my attention is actually one that I converted! I had just posted some pictures of it a 40k facebook group with my friends and someone asked the question about the base counting for line of sight.

I have a lictor that is just in a pretty standard pose, had it for years. For christmas I had 2 finecast lictors, and didnt want them to look the same as the old one, so the first one I just re-posed hime quite a lot, and made his legs look like the were blending into the colour of the ground. the 3rd lictor however is the culprit. I wanted to make him really, REALLY camoflaged, so on his bas I stuck some pipes and girders and stuff, to give him something to blend in with.

My friend actually meant what Da Joka was saying, about the base being the model, but the rules clearly say that you have to see the models body (and defines the body). I doubt it will ever come up for us because:

1. You can clearly see the lictors silhouette from every angle
2. The tallest point of the model, isnt even a girlder, its one of the big talons
3. I hope that I'm never playing with lunatics.

I dont think the stuff on the base counts as the model, but Im also reasonably confident my model wont cause any issues.

While trying to fine some clearly defined peramiters about what you can and cant do with modeling things, I came accross all sorts of comments, people who had seen super long looted vehicles, or like Majere613 said, people making models taller. Some people admittng the mount their skimmers slightly higher than usual to give normal models a clear line of sight underneath.

Although the 'Magic Bin of Invisibility' would be an extreme case... it just seems like theres a really big grey area that could be potentially exploited. The best reference I've found to counter this would be that someone said in the old rules (5th ed I think, but I dont remember), there was something about using models not on their original bases having to be cleared with an opponent first. But thats a different base, and many rules reference base sizes, so that seems pretty major.

It does seem like a good way to go though, show any of your converted models to your friend, if he says "hey, thats really cool" and doesnt seem to have a problem with with you playing it, fine. If you show him and he/she bursts out laughing and shouts "what the hell is going on there?!", they probably have a problem with the models legality or likelyhood to cause an arguement later on.

I tell you what, I'll get some photos of my Lictor up in the modeling/painting sections and I'll link it to my most recent work in my signature (this one is well out of date), and you guys can tell me what you think of it. I dont mean I want you to all go crazy and thing I'm trying to cheat or anything, we're happy to put it on the table, just just welcome feedback for the model itself : )

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Last edited by Azwaz; 04-29-13 at 07:27 AM.
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