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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 07:44 PM Thread Starter
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Default What comes first, the difference between reserves and movement?

So there has been a lot of debate in this thread about different ideas and tactics. I just wanted to hammer it all out and see what was possible, exploring the different possible tactics behind it. Not to mention it's a great learning experience about the rules. However there seems to be some grave misunderstanding and disagreement about fundamental mechanics of the game here. The very key sequences of a turn seem to be debatable and here is why...

Quote:
Arriving From Reserve At the start of your Turn Two, ...
This indicates that rolls for reserve happen at the start of your turn, BEFORE the movement phase has begun. This is not to be confused with the "Beginning of your movement phase", as it is even before that happens.

Further evidence of this being true are occassions like when you would roll to see if Nightfighting continues, should that special rule be in effect from a Character's special ability like Imotekh the Stormlord, as per page 55 of the 5th edition Necron Codex "...rolling a D6 at the start of the turn.". Or in a standard mission in which Night Fighting rules did not take effect during game turn 1, as per page 124 of the 6th edition Warhammer 40k Rulebook "...roll a D6 at the start of the Game Turn 5...". Finally, another example is found on page 103 of the White Dwarf containing Codex Sisters of Battle under Miraculous Intervention "Roll a D6 at the start of each of your subsequent turns.". In the final example, Celestine is placed on the board before the Movement phase has occurs and can even be moved any distance until she is 1 inch away from enemy models. She may then move normally during the Movement Phase.

All of these examples illustrate that there is a strong difference between the "Beginning of your turn" and the "Beginning of your movement phase".

But why does this matter?

Well let's take a look at a point brought up by scscofield. He mentioned that a rule on page 125 of the 6th edition Warhammer 40k Rulebook prevented a Librarian from using his powers on the turn he comes into play. However, let's take a look at that rule. "Unless stated otherwise, a unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from reserve.". User scscofield argues that since a Librarian must use some powers at the "Beginning of his movement phase" he is not permitted to use them if he has come in from reserves, as per the rule on 125. However he is incorrect since as I have illustrated above, the "Beginning of the movement phase" is NOT the same as the "Beginning of your turn". So, in order for the Librarian to not be able to use said powers, the power would have to read "At the beginning of the turn", which is does, in fact, not say.

So, are reserve rolls and movement part of the movement phase? This is confusing because the section on the Movement Phase on Page 10 of the 6th edition Warhammer 40k Rulebook says nothing about reserves. How can it be included in a phase which it is not mentioned within?

Which brings us to the most important facet of this discussion. When do reserve rolls and movement take place? Well, interestingly, the new FAQ as per January 13th presents us with a problem. It reads:

Quote:
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement
phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves
rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)
A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose
turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per
page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
The problem is, who ever presented GW with this question seemed to have the same difficulty in understanding the mechanics behind Arriving from Reserves and Manifesting Powers. This is because page 124 clearly tells us that Reserve Rolls are made BEFORE the movement phase occurs and reads "At the start of your Turn Two, you must roll a d6 for each unit being held...". At the start of your turn, is BEFORE your movement phase. So does that mean that the FAQ is wrong? Did GW even understand what they were saying when they wrote this update? Well, sometimes GW does make odd rulings and even contradict themselves as we have seen.

What can we conclude then about the difference? Could a Librarian arrive from reserve, then use a Blessing at the start of his movement phase since he has not yet acted in it? My conclusion is yes, he can. Although actions such as Deep Striking and Arriving from Reserves cause the model to "Count as having moved" they did not actually move during the movement phase and despite not being able to further move their normal 6 inches, they can act normally, casting powers or using abilities.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 07:55 PM
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Page 67
"On a turn that a psyker arrives from reserve (see page 124) he
cannot attempt to manifest any psychic powers that must be
manifested at the start of the Movement phase."

Units that arrive from reserve do so during the movement phase, they are just required to move before any other units.
From Page 124
When Reserves arrive, the player picks any one of the units arriving and deploys it, moving it onto the table as described below.
WHEN they arrive, there is no indication that the unit is arriving before the start of the movement phase.

The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal.
It does not say "the player can then start his movement phase", the movement phase is already in progress

Last edited by Magpie_Oz; 01-20-13 at 08:01 PM.
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 07:58 PM Thread Starter
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You forgot to cite the page where it says units arriving from reserve do so during the movement phase. I think that might not be in the BRB and just came from the book of Magpie.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
You forgot to cite the page where it says units arriving from reserve do so during the movement phase. I think that might not be in the BRB and just came from the book of Magpie.
Page 10

Perhaps you can give me a reference from the rulebook that allows a unit arriving from reserve to move outside of the movement phase?
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:09 PM Thread Starter
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There is no mention of units arriving from reserve on page 10, but you would have known that had you read the original post. To save time it's better you not make up rules if you want to be in a discussion about them.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
There is no mention of units arriving from reserve on page 10, but you would have known that had you read the original post. To save time it's better you not make up rules if you want to be in a discussion about them.
Page 10 is the movement phase arc. No units can move in any phase other than the movement phase unless they have a special rule that allows them to do so. Arriving from Reserve makes no mention of the unit moving outside of the movement phase, it only requires unit to to MOVE onto the board before any other units move.

The answer to you question in regards of the Librarian is the reference I gave you to Page 67 which states unequivocally that a Pskyer cannot use a power that needs to be cast at the start of the movement phase when he arrives from reserve.
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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Perhaps we have been playing a different game. Units move all the time outside the movement phase without the need of a special rule. Such an example is the Assault phase in which a unit can move 2d6 in an assault move. Other times units move during piling in etc. Scout or Infiltrate lets units move before the game even begins, with said ability. Celestine can move to avoid enemy units when she is resurrected and then can move as normal. There are many examples of units moving outside the movement phase.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
Perhaps we have been playing a different game. Units move all the time outside the movement phase without the need of a special rule. Such an example is the Assault phase in which a unit can move 2d6 in an assault move. Other times units move during piling in etc. Scout or Infiltrate lets units move before the game even begins, with said ability. Celestine can move to avoid enemy units when she is resurrected and then can move as normal. There are many examples of units moving outside the movement phase.
"Moving" in the assault phase comes under the banner of charging or piling in, for which there are specific rules that allow you to do so.
Scout is a special rule that allows you to re-deploy it isn't movement.
Infiltrate is a special rule that allows you to set up differently to normal and has nothing to do with movement.
Celestine has a special rule that allows her to move in a particular way, as many things do.

Where is the rule/special rule that allows a unit arriving from reserve to move outside of the movement phase?
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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If you read page 124 under "Reserves" it explains all about how it works. I could quote it here but it's probably easier just to check your BRB should you have one.

Specifically, it's covered under "Arriving from reserve", which is a special case of movement which is no different than "Piling in" or "Charging" and happens in it's own given time but is not regular movement.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-20-13, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcane View Post
If you read page 124 under "Reserves" it explains all about how it works. I could quote it here but it's probably easier just to check your BRB should you have one.

Specifically, it's covered under "Arriving from reserve", which is a special case of movement which is no different than "Piling in" or "Charging" and happens in it's own given time but is not regular movement.
Nothing on Page 124 allows the unit to move outside of the movement phase.

The line:
"The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal."

Shows that the units arriving from reserve are actually moving in the movement phase, otherwise the line would say, "the player can then begin their movement phase" or something along those lines.
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