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post #41 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 06:51 AM
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I'm with Tim/Steve.

But of importance, is there anywhere in the rulebook that it actually says Cover save can ONLY be taken against shooting?
I can't find it from my quick search, and in 5th ed that certainly was not the case.
In 5th ed, and I assume in 6th too, Cover saves were a standard save you could take against any wound, except where it was specifically denied (like CC).
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post #42 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
The reason that you haven't convinced anyone of your argument and that I keep calling it wrong is that you haven't shown this to be true. You've quoted rules that shown that if you assume that attacks not made in combat are resolved as shooting attacks... but you NEED to quote the BRB showing that hits such as this are in any way resolved as shooting.
Actually I believe I stated that attacks that grant cover saves are resolved as shooting attacks because they're the only things I've seen that specifically allow you to take cover saves.

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Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
I keep coming back to the words "shot", "shooting" and "weapon" because those are the rules that the relevant sections of the BRB refer to. If TftD was one of those then you would be correct... but plain fact that it is a special rule which has no 'shooting' aspect other then that it follows the ruleset of 40k, in which sense you could start to argue that combat is shooting because it is also similar.
Unless there is a rule stating that hits not made in combat are shooting then you cannot make that assumption.
And I keep coming back to how you have to resolve the hits inflicted by the marker. There are a large number of things that "resolve as a shooting attack" in the game to represent melee hits outside of close combat that have been mentioned: Blade Vanes, Vector Strikes, Bombing Run. All of these are done in the movement phase, just like Terror From the Deep is as well. Maybe I'm at fault for trying to classify an ability that works similarly to other abilities that occur in the same phase, but I can't find anything else that would work like that AND give cover saves EXCEPT for things that are either shooting, psychic shooting, or resolve LIKE shooting.

Now a question I could counter-argument regarding "hits", is there any other way using the rules to inflict "hits" on a model other than shooting, attacks that resolve as shooting, vehicles ramming (which a special tank shock that only affects vehicles) or close combat?


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EDIT- with that I'm out. I've made my arguments, no-one has tried to disprove them so I assume they are correct. As for zion's belief that any special rules similar to shooting must be shooting.... well, he's entitled to his beliefs.
Is and like are two different different things. Something that is a duck and something like a duck aren't necessarily the same thing. Similiarly something that IS shooting and something that resolves LIKE shooting don't have to be the same thing either.

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Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
I'm with Tim/Steve.

But of importance, is there anywhere in the rulebook that it actually says Cover save can ONLY be taken against shooting?
I can't find it from my quick search, and in 5th ed that certainly was not the case.
In 5th ed, and I assume in 6th too, Cover saves were a standard save you could take against any wound, except where it was specifically denied (like CC).
Cover Saves are first mentioned in the rulebook on page 18, under "The Shooting Phase" where they mention determining if a model gets a cover save or not.

They are then mentioned again on 26 where they are mentioned in the Assault Phase stating they are not used against close combat attacks.

They also get mentioned on page 90 where you can't take them against wounds caused by dangerous terrain tests (Leaping Down is a Dangerous Terrain test with special rules (pg 95), so it too doesn't permit cover saves).

Now unless there is a third way to generate hits and wounds (as dangerous terrain causes wounds only, I'm not counting it here) on a model I'm pretty sure that it (hence why I initially mentioned it, and why I've had it as a key point more than once).

The only attacks listed in the rulebook that say you can cover saves against are shooting attacks, and while there are shooting attacks that remove cover saves, I can't find any other attack that grants them.

That's why I asked, if there anything that doesn't follow the rules for shooting that grants a cover save (Terror From the Deep excluded since that's the point of contention here, because we can't use a rule that is the hot-topic as proof for itself)?

I can't find anything, hence my belief that anything that lets you take a cover save follows the rules for shooting on some level, even if an actual weapon isn't fired.

I've rolled all these things up into an email to GW's FAQ address. Maybe we'll get them answered in the next go around of FAQs.

Last edited by Zion; 07-16-12 at 09:02 AM.
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post #43 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 09:08 AM
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I still disagree, but your logic is fairly sound.
I believe that just because hitting and wounding are only listed in those places doesn't mean it's exclusive to those types of actions; would you consider The Doom's mind-rape to be a shooting attack?
Nowhere does it explicitly state that Cover Saves only apply to shooting attack, and nowhere does it say that hits/wounds can only be caused by shooting, melee, or DT.

But anyway.
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post #44 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 09:16 AM Thread Starter
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I still disagree, but your logic is fairly sound.
I believe that just because hitting and wounding are only listed in those places doesn't mean it's exclusive to those types of actions; would you consider The Doom's mind-rape to be a shooting attack?
I believe that's probably a kind of Witchfire now (or could be classified as one) which would be a Psychic Shooting Attack, yes.

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Originally Posted by Winterous View Post
Nowhere does it explicitly state that Cover Saves only apply to shooting attack, and nowhere does it say that hits/wounds can only be caused by shooting, melee, or DT.

But anyway.
I added in questions regarding cover saves versus attacks that don't follow the rules for shooting in my email (along with asking "What kind of attack is Terror From the Deep?" and a few other related ones that where hot issues in here).

Additionally we all know that 40K doesn't operate on the "There is no rule" methodology, if a rule doesn't cover it, you can't do it. Either way, email is sent, maybe that get things cleared up in the future.
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post #45 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:40 PM
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What scares me is that if this does work on fliers, than so do hades drills when they pop up because its basically the same thing....show up, drop a template, but that one is str 10 ap 1, with 2d6 armor pen lol



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post #46 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 01:27 AM
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The important thing to understand is that the Codex will trump the main rules, if it says something is "hit" then it is. The attack is resolved vs the armor etc etc. Lets look at a list of unique weapons that all will hit a flyer with no roll, the effect is Auto. Regardless of your stance on the matter keep repeating the mantra over and over "Codex trumps Rulebook, Codex trumps Rulebook, Codex trumps Rulebook "

Blood Lance auto tags anything under the line

Imohtekh’s lightning field hits the target on a 6, no attack roll required

Imohtekh’s Staff of the Destroyer gimps anything under the 2d6 Line, same as the Ray/Cannon

Death Ray just like the Vibro Cannon auto hits anything under the line

Vengeful Tornado works because it was fAQ'ed to not be a shooting attack (you also dont get cover saves vs this, hue hue hue)

Vibro Cannon everything under the line is auto hit

Mawlac special rules if something is under the marker it takes a hit

Any "Beam" Psychic power auto hits anything between points (although this isn't in a Codex the rule is written the same way)

Tesla Arcs will nab one if the primary target is within 6 inches of a flyer by rolling a 6 to trigger the effect


None of these abilities roll to hit as per standered rules, all of their Codex rules states X happens because of Y.

Also a Cover Save can only be taken vs a Ranged attack that causes a wound (Hence you don't get a Cover save vs Markerlight hits) page 26 of the rulebook

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Last edited by Ragewind; 07-19-12 at 05:37 PM.
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post #47 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
The important thing to understand is that the Codex will trump the main rules, if it says something is "hit" then it is. The attack is resolved vs the armor etc etc. Lets look at a list of unique weapons that all will hit a flyer with no roll, the effect is Auto. Regardless of your stance on the matter keep repeating the mantra over and over "Codex trumps Rulebook, Codex trumps Rulebook, Codex trumps Rulebook "

Blood Lance auto tags anything under the line

Imohtep’s lightning field hits the target on a 6, no attack roll required

Death Ray just like the Vibro Cannon auto hits anything under the line

Vengeful Tornado works because it was fAQ'ed to not be a shooting attack (you also dont get cover saves vs this, hue hue hue)

Vibro Cannon everything under the line is auto hit

Mawlac special rules if something is under the marker it takes a hit

Tesla Arcs will nab one if the primary target is within 6 inches of a flyer by rolling a 6


None of these abilities roll to hit as per standered rules, all of their Codex rules states X happens because of Y.

Also a Cover Save can only be taken vs a Ranged attack that causes a wound (Hence you don't get a Cover save vs Markerlight hits) page 26 of the rulebook
This is a good point.
On the same note, the Primaris Telekinesis power (a Beam attack) auto-hits fliers, and at S6 makes it actually a decent anti-flier weapon.
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post #48 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 08:30 AM
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is there not a gw rules phone line u can ring up and ask clarification on certain rules, this seems like quite a clouded one to me.
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post #49 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 08:56 AM
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There is an FAQ email address which I have sent emails off to an had responses from. I have a list in with them at the moment, but this is not one of the questions I asked.


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The important thing to understand is that the Codex will trump the main rules,
Actually the correct notion is that the specific case overrules the general case, this may not always be the Codex over the rulebook but it usually is.
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post #50 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-17-12, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Actually the correct notion is that the specific case overrules the general case, this may not always be the Codex over the rulebook but it usually is.
Exactly. And there are times where old rules have to be handled differently due to new rules.

If anyone wants to ask a bunch of questions of GW about rules you can email them at [email protected]

You won't get a response directly but this is supposed to be the FAQ address so in theory it'll be added to the next batch of FAQs.
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