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post #21 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragewind View Post
Let me know when that single STR 6 hit downs a zooming flyer, what with its armor of 11 and a 4+ save.
Or armor 10 as the DE and I believe ork ones are.



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post #22 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
*in response to this post*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyranid dex (Terror From The Deep)
Place the large blast marker directly over the spot the Mawloc is emerging. Every unit under the marker suffers a number of S6 AP2 hits equal...
(FAQ changes word template to marker)

No part of that rule says anything about "firing" "weapon" or "shoots". Even more clear is that P95 of the 'nid dex lists Terror from the Deep as a special rule... not a weapon.

The 2 rules stopping large blast weapons from hitting flyers are:

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 13 BRB
Some weapon types... cannot be fired as snap shots
Terror From the Deep isn't a weapon, so doesn't have a type. You certainly cannot talk about 'Not being able to fire a Special Rule'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 81 BRB
Template, Blast and Large Blast weapons cannot hit Flyers in Zoom mode
Terror From the Deep is a Special Rule, not a Weapon.

... but just for good measure:
Quote:
Originally Posted by page 81 BRB
Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots.
Terror from the Deep is not a "shot".
Even if you ignore that and claim that it is and so must snap fire then the first quoted rule comes into play: snap fire rules stop Large Blast weapons from being fired... not special rules that place large blasts.



Flyers are protected from large blasts in 2 ways: either the snap fire rules stop the weapon from firing in the first place, Hard to Hit rules ignore the hit. Neither of which affect the Mawloc since snap fire cannot stop a special rule from being triggered and Hard to Hit only ignores weapons.

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post #23 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 11:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim/Steve View Post
(FAQ changes word template to marker)

No part of that rule says anything about "firing" "weapon" or "shoots". Even more clear is that P95 of the 'nid dex lists Terror from the Deep as a special rule... not a weapon.

The 2 rules stopping large blast weapons from hitting flyers are:


Terror From the Deep isn't a weapon, so doesn't have a type. You certainly cannot talk about 'Not being able to fire a Special Rule'.


Terror From the Deep is a Special Rule, not a Weapon.

... but just for good measure:

Terror from the Deep is not a "shot".
Even if you ignore that and claim that it is and so must snap fire then the first quoted rule comes into play: snap fire rules stop Large Blast weapons from being fired... not special rules that place large blasts.



Flyers are protected from large blasts in 2 ways: either the snap fire rules stop the weapon from firing in the first place, Hard to Hit rules ignore the hit. Neither of which affect the Mawloc since snap fire cannot stop a special rule from being triggered and Hard to Hit only ignores weapons.
Hard to hit ignores weapons and shooting attacks (which counts in Psychic Powers and other generalized things, not just actual guns) of a lot of types, and forces you to resolve them using the Snap Shot rules if the model doesn't have Skyfire. And while Terror From the Deep is NOT a weapon it is a Special Rule, it is still resolved as if it where a shooting attack using a large blast marker that automatically hits enemy models touching it (again, or else cover saves could never be applied).

I think you're getting confused with what I'm trying to say (especially when you keep trying to claim I'm calling it a weapon despite me pointing out that these rules pertain to all forms of abilities that resolve as per shooting). I don't mean that the TFtD rule is a weapon, I mean that it's a Special Rule that resolves as if it where a shooting attack, which still has to follow the rules for shooting even if it has it's own rules for how it's used.

Before I turn this into another page stretcher I'll sum up: yes it's a special ability, but it resolves as a shooting attack (not a weapon). Yes it technically hits, but then the Hard to Hit rule forces it to be resolved as a Snap Shot which then negates it's ability against a Zooming Flyer since any kind of Shooting Attack that doesn't require you to roll to hit can't be Snap Shot (even though it automatically happens, this is how it's forced to resolve under the rules).

Now about the only counter-agurement that I can gather from the various rules is the Mawloc's Terror From the Deep "automatically hits vehicles on their side-armor", which may trump the big rulebook's rules, or may not (since it could still technically hit, then be resolved as if it where done differently). I'm seeing a clear chain of events and modifiers that come into play that prevent the auto-hit from being able to work against a Zooming Flyer is all.

Either way I think GW needs to address this soon (like the 80 other questions out there), this was just my take on how it all interacts and resolves.
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post #24 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 01:33 PM
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It is not a shooting attack at all, it is a deep strike result. Hence all that crap about shooting means nothing. Mawloc 'deep strikes', anything that ends up under it's 'landing marker' takes a str6 ap2 hit. There was no shooting, it is not during the shooting phase, shooting has nothing whatsoever to do with any of it. It is a deep strike result, nothing more. Did GW intend this to happen, probably not. Arguing it can not happen and stating anything about rules involving shooting though fail before your finished typing shooting. Because this is a deep strike result in the movement phase. He has uses this instead of the Mishap Chart.

Edit: The Mawloc doesn't even have a BS, it is BS0. There is no shooting whatsoever going on in that model's abilities and profile.

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post #25 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scscofield View Post
It is not a shooting attack at all, it is a deep strike result. Hence all that crap about shooting means nothing. Mawloc 'deep strikes', anything that ends up under it's 'landing marker' takes a str6 ap2 hit. There was no shooting, it is not during the shooting phase, shooting has nothing whatsoever to do with any of it. It is a deep strike result, nothing more. Did GW intend this to happen, probably not. Arguing it can not happen and stating anything about rules involving shooting though fail before your finished typing shooting. Because this is a deep strike result in the movement phase. He has uses this instead of the Mishap Chart.
You are indeed correct, the Mawloc doesn't technically shoot. But the way the wounds are handled (namely the line about cover saves) to me says that at the least, it's TREATED like shooting for purposes of resolving the affected unit(namely in doleing out cover saves to the wounded models and the fact that this is called an "attack". This has been part of my line of reasoning for a while).

But having gone over it all again, without Terror from the Deep saying anything about shooting the whole cover save thing becomes really dumb as it opens up lines of logic like the one I have here. And I think that's the problem actually, is that one small question in the FAQ opened up this line of reasoning.

Well this is why I opened it up to everyone to talk about (not to name call, or get into arguments about something I never said), but to see if it was a reasonable, and logic line of thinking, and I think that's where it breaks down now, the fact that I'm basing it off the implication that the rule is treated as shooting for allocating hits onto models based on a question on if the rule lets models get cover saves.
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post #26 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 02:05 PM
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Random unhelpful idea.. It'd be cool if the Terror from the Deep caused the pilot to pass an initiative test or the plane takes a hit, like they suddenly increased altitude or banked off to the side.

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Originally Posted by Nordicus View Post
"Look they got a-OH MY GOD I'M ON FIRE FOR THE LOVE OF NAKED SANTA IT HURTS!"
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post #27 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 02:25 PM
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That's pretty much what the cover save is Silens.

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post #28 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 03:46 PM
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Does the flyer need to move off the blast marker? yes.
so if it is forced to move it also should take the hit.

RAW? yep.
RAI? maybe, hopefully the BRB faq will clear it up.
fluffy? you bet, throwing large amounts of rocks into the air to get sucked into engines is bad for planes.
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post #29 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 04:40 PM
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It states nowhere that it is shooting.
It states that it automatically hits rear armour, which means that the snap shooting that is being argued about is irrelevant.
As it is not a blast weapon, the Hard to Hit rules do not do anything to its ability to hit.

As I see it, it does work, they probably didn't mean it to, but it does fit in with the 'cinematic' ideal they seem to be working to. Big monster flies out of the ground, rocks flying everywhere (and probably gaining the height to bash the aircraft).
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post #30 of 72 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
I think you're getting confused with what I'm trying to say (especially when you keep trying to claim I'm calling it a weapon despite me pointing out that these rules pertain to all forms of abilities that resolve as per shooting). I don't mean that the TFtD rule is a weapon, I mean that it's a Special Rule that resolves as if it where a shooting attack, which still has to follow the rules for shooting even if it has it's own rules for how it's used.
Nope, we're just pointing out the rules over and over in the hope that you'll catch on at some point.

i understand exactly what you are saying... you are just wrong.

TftD is not a shooting attack, does not follow the rules for a shooting attack, is not resolved as a shooting attack and in fact has nothing to do with shooting at all... you may have the belief that anything that isn't combat is a shooting attack, but that is rubbish.

You cannot find rules that effect 'shooting' and 'weapons' and apply them to things which are neither of those just because their effects are similar. It would be like claiming CSM have ATSKNF because they are both not Tau... not being combat does not make something shooting.

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