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post #191 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-15-12, 10:52 PM
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Indeed. Dabnte still has I6, he just strikes on I1 when using the axe. Likewise for Kahrn. If you lowered their initiative it would lower their base and not change the fact they strike at I1. Likewise, if you raised their initiatives, they would still strike on I1

Anyway, for the record I'm done talking about Dante's axe. The rules are as written, nothing but an official FAQ will change it, we've discussed it to death. Clearly at least one person isn't convinced and it doesn't look like anything anyone says will change anybody's mind so if the day ever comes I'm across the table from Azrell we'll just have to roll for who's version we'll use.

I'm going to take some asprin and check out some other threads for a while ;-)

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post #192 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 02:49 AM
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http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...Marine_6th.pdf

you might want to look at this. Its the Chaos FAQ. Gorechild was amended to strike at I1 otherwise it would have been a unique power weapon just like dante's axe.

Why would they have amended something that was already true?... they wouldn't it would have been in the FAQs section, because that's where clarifications go.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #193 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
No lie. I still can't figure out why someone would to take a good combo like Dante with an Axe and nerf that. Seriously, let's look at the pros and cons for the Axe vs the "Unusual Power Weapon" that we keep seeing:

Axe (Pros):
+ Strength Bonus (+1S) that stacks with Furious Charge to make Dante wound Marines on 2s on the charge
+ AP2, which allows Dante to force Invunerable saves on anyone he smacks
+ Master Crafted so Dante gets to reroll 1 missed hit per turn
+ Doesn't negate Dante's High Initative for Sweeping Advance so he still gets +6 to his Initative check to sweep.

Axe (Cons):
- Dante swings an Initiative 1 (along with almost every other AP1/2 weapon)

Unusual Power Weapon (Pros):
+ AP3 so he can reliably kill Marines
+ Doesn't interfere with his Initiative so he swings on I6
+ Still sweeps at I6
+ Still Master-crafted

Unusual Power Weapon (Cons):
- Dante can't reliably hurt Terminators or anyone in Artificer Armor.
- S4 during combat after the charge

As we clearly see the Axe gives the most actual benefits for forcing wounds. So why give Dante a Wiffle Bat?
Pros and Cons have nothing to do with it. That people think like this is the only explanation why they refuse to consider the additional facts beyond arguing over what "unique" means.

The Truth is all that matters, the truth will set you free.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #194 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrell View Post
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...Marine_6th.pdf

you might want to look at this. Its the Chaos FAQ. Gorechild was amended to strike at I1 otherwise it would have been a unique power weapon just like dante's axe.

Why would they have amended something that was already true?... they wouldn't it would have been in the FAQs section, because that's where clarifications go.
You're argument is that a different kind of weapon on a different character in a different codex was handled differently so that makes you right?

Seriously?

Now I could understand being able to point out actual rules and say "this is why I say this" but all you've done is twist rules around to suit your purposes.

You've misquoted them, and then when we pointed that out you argued the definition of "unique" in terms of "unique special rules" for several pages.

And when we pointed that out as being completely wrong you argued that "Unique Characters" should have all their special rules counted as "Unique".

This isn't even about you having a different point of view anymore is it? I'm beginning to think you're just trolling everyone to waste our time trying to explain to you how "unique special rules" work.

Because I refuse to believe that anyone can be so thick to argue over a three word phrase for nearly the length of the thread without going "well, I guess I was wrong, thanks for clearing that up guys" without doing so intentionally.

This is THE cut and dry way to identify a Unusual Power Weapon:

1. Is it a Power Weapon (or is it TREATED as a Power Weapon)? If Yes, see 2. If No, it's a Close Combat Weapon.

2. Are it's rules in the Big Rulebook? If Yes, it's not an Unusual Power Weapon, look at the model and determine what kind it is based on WYSIWYG. If no, then it's an Unusual Power Weapon.

It's THAT easy. It took me longer to type that then it does to walk through that tiny check list.

If it bugs you for Dante to be I1 THAT BADLY and you REALLY want an AP3 Dante who can't be used reliably on Terminators then convert yourself up a character that "counts as Dante" and give him a sword (since it's a Power Weapon by the listing in Dante's Wargear this is a completely legitimate option, just make sure you name it for bonus points, and write up some fluff for your new super special awesome Space Marine. This will keep people from saying you're just modelling for advantage and get you bonus points with the fluff nerds).

Problem solved. You get Dante's rules, but you're own nifty model with it's own named Power Weapon of great justice. You can even make it a successor chapter for bonus points and have cool looking models that aren't just the standard red and/or black.

But if you want Dante as he is, then he comes with a Power Axe that gets a free reroll for 1 failed to hit roll.
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post #195 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
You're argument is that a different kind of weapon on a different character in a different codex was handled differently so that makes you right?

Seriously?

Now I could understand being able to point out actual rules and say "this is why I say this" but all you've done is twist rules around to suit your purposes.

You've misquoted them, and then when we pointed that out you argued the definition of "unique" in terms of "unique special rules" for several pages.

And when we pointed that out as being completely wrong you argued that "Unique Characters" should have all their special rules counted as "Unique".

This isn't even about you having a different point of view anymore is it? I'm beginning to think you're just trolling everyone to waste our time trying to explain to you how "unique special rules" work.

Because I refuse to believe that anyone can be so thick to argue over a three word phrase for nearly the length of the thread without going "well, I guess I was wrong, thanks for clearing that up guys" without doing so intentionally.

This is THE cut and dry way to identify a Unusual Power Weapon:

1. Is it a Power Weapon (or is it TREATED as a Power Weapon)? If Yes, see 2. If No, it's a Close Combat Weapon.

2. Are it's rules in the Big Rulebook? If Yes, it's not an Unusual Power Weapon, look at the model and determine what kind it is based on WYSIWYG. If no, then it's an Unusual Power Weapon.

It's THAT easy. It took me longer to type that then it does to walk through that tiny check list.

If it bugs you for Dante to be I1 THAT BADLY and you REALLY want an AP3 Dante who can't be used reliably on Terminators then convert yourself up a character that "counts as Dante" and give him a sword (since it's a Power Weapon by the listing in Dante's Wargear this is a completely legitimate option, just make sure you name it for bonus points, and write up some fluff for your new super special awesome Space Marine. This will keep people from saying you're just modelling for advantage and get you bonus points with the fluff nerds).

Problem solved. You get Dante's rules, but you're own nifty model with it's own named Power Weapon of great justice. You can even make it a successor chapter for bonus points and have cool looking models that aren't just the standard red and/or black.

But if you want Dante as he is, then he comes with a Power Axe that gets a free reroll for 1 failed to hit roll.
I didn't read this, just like you didn't read pg 81 in the Chaos space marine codex, under wargear where is calls all wargear listed in the force section under a unit or character "unique". Consequently it says the same thing in the BAs codex, and almost word for word in several other codices.

Thats why Karns axe had to be amended, otherwise it was a unique power weapon because is was listed under his wargear and not in the wargear section.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #196 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:27 AM
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I know I said I was out but damn, that gorechild reference was random as hell and worthy of comment.

Gorechild has a TON of unique rules that very clearly make it an unusual, but because it's also plainly a goddamned axe, they went out of their way to say that it still gets treated as one.

Not only does it not *support* your argument in any way, seeing as how it;s so completely and utterly *different* from Dante's lack of unique rules, if anything it UNDERMINES it because it shows clear intent by GW for axe-shaped special power weapons to still be treated as axes.

I mean, if Gorechild which is very clearly unusual is still counted as a power axe because it;s still a damned axe, how does that in any way prove that Dante's axe, which is a power axe, special only in that it's master crafted is somehow NOT an axe?

My mind boggles

And again, it doesn't matter in the least bit if the WEAPON is unique.
The Axe Mortalis IS UNIQUE
Nobody has ever tried to argue that it wasn't, in fact it's been stated as a given dozens of times.

The category isn't 'UNIQUE power weapon'
If it were then there'd be no argument. Dante's gear is all unique, case closed.

The category is 'UNUSUAL power weapon'
And to qualify as Unusual it has to have unique RULES

Gorechild has unique rules
The Axe Mortalis does not.

And at this point, if you're openly stating that you aren't even bothering to read opposing posts anymore there's no point in you continuing to even post in this thread. Maybe you should just write this one off. You;re not convincing anyone of anything at this point, there's no reason to keep dragging it out, especially if you aren't even bothering to listen anymore.

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post #197 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:45 AM
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post #198 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrell View Post
I didn't read this, just like you didn't read pg 81 in the Chaos space marine codex, under wargear where is calls all wargear listed in the force section under a unit or character "unique". Consequently it says the same thing in the BAs codex, and almost word for word in several other codices.

Thats why Karns axe had to be amended, otherwise it was a unique power weapon because is was listed under his wargear and not in the wargear section.
Unique Wargear does not mean Unique Rules (as explained several times before). It just means they slap a pretty name on it and that SOMETIMES it gets rules that are unique.

Kharn's axe is Unique AND has Unique rules and would otherwise be an Unusual Power Weapon, but GW said that they wanted it to be treated as a Power Axe instead. Dante has a Unique Power Weapon that is a Power Axe. These are not the same thing.

And not reading people's posts and then telling them that you were too lazy to read it never supports your argument. It says "I'm too lazy and don't care enough to see what you actually said. In fact I'm so confident that I'm right that I'm not going to take time to read it all all, but I'll tell you about it instead."

Go troll somewhere else. Everyone here has taken the time to politely explain to you why you're reading the rules wrong and you instead write up posts like that. You've yet to quote a rule correctly and you often make up new definitions that don't work within the rules.

I've brought up twice now that if Unique, for the purposes of your definition, meant that weapons owned by Unique models counted as having Unique Special Rules that it would create a new issue: power weapons with unique rules (like the Agonizer, which isn't poisoned but wounds on a fixed number, or Neural Whips which roll to wound at S8 vs your unmodified leadership) would no longer be covered and would then be unable to categorized.

You've ignored actually responding to it twice. For fuck's sake RTFRB COMPLETELY (this means without trying to twist words around to have new meanings or adding words to sentences) and quit trying to be pedantic about the rules in an effort to be right. It doesn't make you cool and it doesn't make people agree with you.

TL;DR: The Rulebook is cut and dry. Quit trying to twist it to suit your personal opinions.

And if that was too long: OI! Quit actin' like a knob!
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post #199 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-16-12, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zion View Post
And if that was too long: OI! Quit actin' like a knob!
Alright, that's enough. It's starting to get needlessly personal and it's obvious that the argument itself is going nowhere.

Thread over

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