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post #161 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Azrell View Post
Adding master crafted to a weapon separably wouldn't make it an unusual power weapon because its applied in post. the other ones are because the MC can not be separated from the weapon without making it a different weapon.
I would argue that a Master-crafted Power Axe and Dante's Power Axe are functionally identical and thus need to be treated the same, named weapon or not. If they use the same mechanic they are the same. That's like saying a named Flamer gets to work differently than a regular flamer despite having the same rules.

Either way this ruling doesn't match the RAW of the Unusual Power Weapons rule that states "Unique Special Rules" which I would say are Special Rules only found in a paticular codex.

Master-crafted is a Special Rule defined in the Big Rule Book, thus not a Unique Special rule thus violates the defining requirement of the rule: that the Special Rule has to be unique.
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post #162 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Zion View Post
I would argue that a Master-crafted Power Axe and Dante's Power Axe are functionally identical and thus need to be treated the same, named weapon or not. If they use the same mechanic they are the same. That's like saying a named Flamer gets to work differently than a regular flamer despite having the same rules.

Either way this ruling doesn't match the RAW of the Unusual Power Weapons rule that states "Unique Special Rules" which I would say are Special Rules only found in a paticular codex.

Master-crafted is a Special Rule defined in the Big Rule Book, thus not a Unique Special rule thus violates the defining requirement of the rule: that the Special Rule has to be unique.
You could but you would be wrong.

"The Axe Moralis is a power weapon with mater crafted"

"A power weapon that is master crafted is The Axe Mortalis"

One of those statements is untrue. Think about why.

You can try and define unique any way you want but there is no game term "unique rules", there is a game term "special rules" and they are defined and start on pg32. Unique was just a poor choice of words by GW, nothing more.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #163 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:32 PM
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Until it's in an FAQ it's just one redshirt's opinion
Working for GW doesn't give you magical insight into the rules, nor does it give you the ability to change the rules as written.

The rules as written are fairly clear.
You need UNIQUE rules to be an Unusual weapon

If a codex says a weapon with special rules (but no unique rules) is a power weapon then it is a power weapon and follows the rules for power weapons, regardless of it having any non-unique special rules.

You can ask the guy who works at your game store, you can ask your mum, you can e-mail some random monkey at GW, but until they put out an FAQ (or more likely an errata) that specifically changes the rules, the rules in the book stand.

And the rules in the book say you need unique rules to be an unusual pw.

Unique is not poor wording, unique was chosen for a reason.
Special Rules already exist in the book and can be applied without any extra effort.
If you have a Power Axe with Master Crafted you know exactly how to deal with it. You know it is a power axe so you know it's AP and characteristics, and you know it's master crafted. It doesn't need any extra litigation.

Unique rules however, are not covered in the book and therefore require that you use the rules as they are laid out in the codex. But since the codex does not list an AP value for unusual weapons they give it AP3.

There is not a damned thing that is unusual about Dante's axe. Power Axes are not unusual, MC Power Weapons are not unusual.
It does not require any extra rules because it does not have any unique rules.

The rules are as written. Nothing but an official FAQ can change that.

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Last edited by Galahad; 07-13-12 at 06:40 PM.
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post #164 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrell View Post

You can try and define unique any way you want but there is no game term "unique rules", there is a game term "special rules" and they are defined and start on pg32. Unique was just a poor choice of words by GW, nothing more.
Not really, there is only one definition of Unique.
Oxford English Dictionary:
Quote:
Definition of unique
adjective

being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else
The Axe Mortalis simply being master crafted does not make it unique, there are many other weapons that are master crafted.
Being called the Axe Mortalis does make it unique, no other weapons are called the Axe Mortalis, but simply being named is not a reason for a weapon to be listed as unusual, according to the rules.

Astorath's axe is unique, there are no other weapons in game terms that do what his axe does, making it one of a kind and unique.

Sorry, unique and the use of it are a bugbear of mine, it pisses me off when people say that something is "quite unique" or "that's really unique!" It either is or it isn't.

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post #165 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:44 PM
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Its really sad how this used to be good place for rules. guess we will just have to wait for the FAQ to explain another obvious rule. In the meantime lets just keep DAKKA'n over the meaning of the word "unique" in 40k jargon.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #166 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:55 PM
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I think zion and galahad cover it pretty well. Actually the first page covered it pretty well.

You don't see chaos players fighting tooth and nail to argue gorechild into an unsual weapon, even though it follows the same logic as with dante's (or even better because it has rules unique to it, not just slapping MC on a PW).
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post #167 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrell View Post
Its really sad how this used to be good place for rules. guess we will just have to wait for the FAQ to explain another obvious rule. In the meantime lets just keep DAKKA'n over the meaning of the word "unique" in 40k jargon.
It's still a good place for rules. We've told you the rules a dozen times.

You just refuse to listen to them.
Giving answers you don't like doesn't mean they aren't true.

The rule is obvious. You need unique rules to be an unusual weapon.
Any rule that is defined somewhere other than the original source is obviously not unique. How could Master Crafted possibly be a unique rule when it;s in the main book and dozens of weapons in almost every codex have it?
It's not unique, therefore dante's axe is not unusual.

Find me anything anywhere official that actually supports your argument or refutes my points, I'll wait.

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Last edited by Galahad; 07-13-12 at 07:02 PM.
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post #168 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrell View Post
Its really sad how this used to be good place for rules. guess we will just have to wait for the FAQ to explain another obvious rule. In the meantime lets just keep DAKKA'n over the meaning of the word "unique" in 40k jargon.
Most of us are in agreement in what the rules means and how it's supposed to be applied then every couple pages someone brings back up the same argument that the concept of "unique special rules" isn't defined in the Big Rule Book that it doesn't mean anything when they just need to use some basic reading comprehension.

For those who aren't getting what I mean:

"Special Rules" is a proper noun, these are rules that overrule the Basic Rules in the game.

Unique Special Rules are still Special Rules, but the kind they are is being modified by the adjective unique (which we've seen described before in this thread, and in a dictionary to mean "one of a kind").

So what does this tell us? It tells us that Unique Special Rules are indeed Special Rules, that are one of a kind Special Rules that override the Basic Rules.

To argue anything else because it's not SPECIFICALLY in the rulebook it meaningless. "Unique Special Rules" don't need a definition because they ARE the definition.
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post #169 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 07:17 PM
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All unique rules are special rules.
Not all special rules are unique.

All grass is green.
Not all green things are grass.

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post #170 of 199 (permalink) Old 07-13-12, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad View Post
All unique rules are special rules.
Not all special rules are unique.

All grass is green.
Not all green things are grass.
Damn! My parents are going to be pissed. They told me to cut the grass and I drove the mower through the hedges, thinking they wanted all the green stuff gone.

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