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post #101 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
This is funny, it's like you recognize that it can't be used to shoot flyers but then say if I'm only targeting ground units then the death ray still hits flyers because I'm not shooting flyers. Can't wait for an official FAQ
Gah! You aren't targeting anything with the death ray!. Pick point, roll dice, measure line. Touches a tank then the tank gets toasted, touches a flier then the flier gets toasted. tesla gun shoots at something else entirely. easy

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post #102 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post

Did you read anything I posted? The Reason why the can hit flyers is because they DON'T target them.

The Death Ray shoots a line, after you figure out where that line is, it's shot is resolved. Then Anything under that line is hit.

All I'm saying is if the Doomscythe wants to Skyfire, it can not fire it's Death Ray, because it can NEVER target a flyer (or anything else for that matter). And there for must fire a snap shot, witch it can't do because it doesn't roll to hit.





This is all you need to know. They don't need to FAQ it. People just need to read the rules. No ifs ands or buts you take a hit. Plain and simple.
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Gah! You aren't targeting anything with the death ray!. Pick point, roll dice, measure line. Touches a tank then the tank gets toasted, touches a flier then the flier gets toasted. tesla gun shoots at something else entirely. easy
I completely understand what you both said. I also completely follow your advanced vs. basic rules. The problem both of you continue to ignore is what happens with the hit. You seem to think that even though flyer rules completely (always without skyfire) require shots to be resolved as snap fire (which you agree the death ray cannot be) that it somehow ignores that because it took a hit. Resolved doesn't mean initially, it means in the end. If we had resolved this argument six days ago it would be over. This basic word escapes you both though.

Sequence: Doom scythe chooses to fire weapons normally. User picks point, 3d6 draws a line. Line hits two infantry, a tank, and flyer. Everything under this line takes a hit. At this point both infantry and tank would now need to roll for armour penetration, however the flyer operates outside of the sequence because of the additional requirement under hard to hit rule. It goes flyer hit, was it shot from blast, large blast or template? No. Was shot from something using skyfire? No. Was shot using snap fire rules? Again, no. Shot cannot be resolved against flyer. Now you roll for wounds on infantry and damage on tank. Nothing else matters. You can claim my weapon gives me holy powers of specialness but it doesn't negate flyer resolution rules, it just allows you to draw a line.

In this same line of thinking we debated the vibro cannon this weekend at my lgs and came to the conclusion that since they do use a ballistic skill we would allow them to draw the line and then if it hit a flyer on a roll of six (in addition to original roll unless it was already a six) it would still hit. While death ray doesn't traditionally use a ballistic skill it may be a more fair compromise over the current 'I win' rule that you are arguing.
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post #103 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 02:11 PM
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I will continue using the "If I select Skyfire mode on my aircraft, it can affect aircraft as written, and if I choose Intercept, it cannot affect aircraft. However, if I skyfire it, it won't affect anything on the ground"

I think that's a fair compromise pending a FAQ that addresses it specifically.
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post #104 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
... however the flyer operates outside of the sequence because of the additional requirement under hard to hit rule. It goes flyer hit, was it shot from blast, large blast or template? No. Was shot from something using skyfire? No. Was shot using snap fire rules? Again, no. Shot cannot be resolved against flyer. Now you roll for wounds on infantry and damage on tank. Nothing else matters. You can claim my weapon gives me holy powers of specialness but it doesn't negate flyer resolution rules, it just allows you to draw a line.
You have your sequence arse about mate.

It isn't "flyer hit ... was it snap fire?" at all it is
"Shooting at Flyer, is it a template or blast? no, do I use BS, yes, Snap Fire, did I roll a six ? no, I missed."

For the Death Ray it is
"Line over flyer, is it a template or blast? no, do I use BS, No, is it an auto hit,yes, flyer takes damage"

The rule says that shots must be resolved as snap shots, it says nothing about excluding things from effecting it that don't resolve shots. Template and blasts are specifically excluded but nothing else.

I would suggest that it is things like the death ray that have to be specifically EXCLUDED rather than specifically INCLUDED.

The Codex says all things under the line take a hit, no qualification is made. Codex overrules rule book so until such time as the Codex is updated or the FAQ changed or what ever you can't get away from the auto hit.

Last edited by Magpie_Oz; 07-23-12 at 02:31 PM.
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post #105 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 02:27 PM
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mcmuffin and Da Joka are right, the Death Ray can shoot down flyers. I think what you're missing Emperors Knights is that effects never negate themselves after they've happened. In your example you draw the line and it hits a couple of ground units and a flyer, Hard to Hit never comes into play ever as you've already hit the flyer. You just resolve the hits.

You never shot at the Flyer with the Death Ray, thus Hard to Hit never has any affect. You just hit it, and resolve the shot as normal.

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post #106 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
Sequence: Doom scythe chooses to fire weapons normally. User picks point, 3d6 draws a line. Line hits two infantry, a tank, and flyer. Everything under this line takes a hit. At this point both infantry and tank would now need to roll for armour penetration, however the flyer operates outside of the sequence because of the additional requirement under hard to hit rule. It goes flyer hit, was it shot from blast, large blast or template? No. Was shot from something using skyfire? No. Was shot using snap fire rules? Again, no. Shot cannot be resolved against flyer. Now you roll for wounds on infantry and damage on tank. Nothing else matters. You can claim my weapon gives me holy powers of specialness but it doesn't negate flyer resolution rules, it just allows you to draw a line.

OK, I'm angry now. Have you been listening? Shot resolution would require the Death Ray to not fire. Which can't happen. It's already shot, flyer takes automatic hits. Snap shots only affects to hit, saying that: a)You must fire snap shots against flyer. b)Death Ray cannot fire snap shots, but the weapon has already fired (you'd have to un-fire it, which can't be done), so sorry, auto-hits. c)Damage happens. Stuff explodes.

There are two ways of thinking:
a- The Death Ray causes automatic hits. Therefore it ignores hard to hit.
b- The Death Ray must resolve the hit as snap shots, snap shots says that you cannot fire weapon. The weapon's already been fired though, so the Death Ray auto-hits flyer.


In this same line of thinking we debated the vibro cannon this weekend at my lgs and came to the conclusion that since they do use a ballistic skill we would allow them to draw the line and then if it hit a flyer on a roll of six (in addition to original roll unless it was already a six) it would still hit. While death ray doesn't traditionally use a ballistic skill it may be a more fair compromise over the current 'I win' rule that you are arguing.
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Originally Posted by Creon View Post
I will continue using the "If I select Skyfire mode on my aircraft, it can affect aircraft as written, and if I choose Intercept, it cannot affect aircraft. However, if I skyfire it, it won't affect anything on the ground"

I think that's a fair compromise pending a FAQ that addresses it specifically.

It's a fair compromise, and a good one to use when your opponents can't see the logic until an FAQ is released.
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post #107 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
I completely understand what you both said. I also completely follow your advanced vs. basic rules. The problem both of you continue to ignore is what happens with the hit. You seem to think that even though flyer rules completely (always without skyfire) require shots to be resolved as snap fire (which you agree the death ray cannot be) that it somehow ignores that because it took a hit. Resolved doesn't mean initially, it means in the end. If we had resolved this argument six days ago it would be over. This basic word escapes you both though.

Sequence: Doom scythe chooses to fire weapons normally. User picks point, 3d6 draws a line. Line hits two infantry, a tank, and flyer. Everything under this line takes a hit. At this point both infantry and tank would now need to roll for armour penetration, however the flyer operates outside of the sequence because of the additional requirement under hard to hit rule. It goes flyer hit, was it shot from blast, large blast or template? No. Was shot from something using skyfire? No. Was shot using snap fire rules? Again, no. Shot cannot be resolved against flyer. Now you roll for wounds on infantry and damage on tank. Nothing else matters. You can claim my weapon gives me holy powers of specialness but it doesn't negate flyer resolution rules, it just allows you to draw a line.

In this same line of thinking we debated the vibro cannon this weekend at my lgs and came to the conclusion that since they do use a ballistic skill we would allow them to draw the line and then if it hit a flyer on a roll of six (in addition to original roll unless it was already a six) it would still hit. While death ray doesn't traditionally use a ballistic skill it may be a more fair compromise over the current 'I win' rule that you are arguing.
Oh my sweet fuck, seriously? "I don't think it should work like it is written so let's compromise" is not a valid argument. Vibro cannons work the same, you don't need your snap shot because you have already rolled to hit.

You must snap shot because of the Hard to Hit rule when TARGETING a flyer. Death ray does not target anything, so your argument is invalid.

Codex rules override BRB rules where the two are in conflict, so your argument is invalid

Everything under the line takes a hit, you said so yourself, so how can you argue that you need to roll another dice?

The flyer resolution rules, which don't actually exist, but we'll say they are the hard to hit rules, simply say that shooting AT a flier requires a snap shot. When you aren't shooting at it then they dont come into effect. Tesla bounces from destructors dont require a roll to hit, they cause D6 hits on a 6. are you going to tell me that they don't affect fliers either. or what about the bonus hits from a tesla destructor when you roll a 6 to hit, do those 2 not count because you didn't roll to hit with them either? It's the same situation in the wording of the rules

You are deluded as to the way the game works my friend, you cannot somehow make up rules that don't exist. death ray hits fliers, deal with it

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post #108 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 07:56 PM
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Oh my sweet fuck, seriously? "I don't think it should work like it is written so let's compromise" is not a valid argument.
This is now my sig.

On a side note, I find it really simple how the rule on this works. Codex>BRB. Always. So that's that. But people have to "read into it" and pull some random rules from the fluff or something stupid. "Hey you can't shoot my stormraven, it's higher than you are..." And where do the rules say that? Nowhere. You just imagine fluff mixed with RAW. This is so dangerous, especially with n00b players or people who just can't understand basic english. All that to say this argument is really stupid, NOVA tournaments are letting the death ray and vibrocannon insta hit (from what I understand) so why are we arguing about it? I'm not gonna let you nerf my army because you can't read rules....We are right, they are wrong. Point and shoot. But you don't have to play with them so no worries.
Thanks for the hilarity though on the sig..... Oh man it's so good.

Last edited by Starsplice; 07-23-12 at 07:59 PM.
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post #109 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 08:59 PM
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I'm not gonna let you nerf my army because you can't read rules....We are right, they are wrong. Point and shoot. But you don't have to play with them so no worries.
Thanks for the hilarity though on the sig..... Oh man it's so good.
Awww poor baby, you are playing such a difficult army! Heaven forbid you don't get an all amazing death beam that fucks everything and is a flyer too!

That said, the rules do state draw a line, kill everything in it...RAW it totally just rapes everything. Should it be that way? Certainly not, it's a straight line, much like a laser beam, that Should only hit things it actually passes through, so it could go at an angle and hit ground targets that way as the beam hits the ground...however that's not how the jackass Ward in his infinite wisdom decided to write it. This thread should not be this long, RAW it works, end thread.



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post #110 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-23-12, 09:29 PM
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Awww poor baby, you are playing such a difficult army! Heaven forbid you don't get an all amazing death beam that fucks everything and is a flyer too!
You obviously make assumptions and whine (I don't play crons or eldar. Can you guess what I do play?). And you don't play crons. Past that, your last post is quite useless to point out anything other than the obvious.

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Oh my sweet fuck, seriously? "I don't think it should work like it is written so let's compromise" is not a valid argument.
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