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post #91 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-21-12, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Septok View Post
The Death Ray both does not and cannot snap fire. Flyer rules say hits must be snap shots, which says that the weapon cannot fire at all. Which is obviously false. The weapon's fired, so it ignores snap shot rules, and hits.
I'm sorry, we must be focusing on different parts of the rule. I read that shots at flyers can only be resolved as snap shots. I read the word resolved as determined. So going off of just these basic components I see that shots without a ballistic skill can never be snap shot thereby negating anything from the death ray; which is why I feel that although you can certainly hit the flyer it cannot be determined because it was not a snap shot.

Regardless I believe we've reached the point of impasse.

I apologize if the shield thing was confusing. I was trying to point out that while there are weapons that may target a specific model or hit a certain point, they damage multiple models and it all counts as shooting.

I appreciate you keeping the debates mostly civil though guys In the end it up to the opponent and this is just a game!
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post #92 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-21-12, 04:37 PM
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The thing is that Snap Shots have nothing to do with the argument. Really, it's not about a vehicle power or USR, its not about snap shooting or targeting a base.

It's about the very specific rules in the codex about a special ability regarding a weapon. That is whats the problem. If you ignore all the rules in the BRB (yes I said it) and refer to how codexes override ALL rules in the BRB, then this is a very easy discussion. Trying to refer to the BRB as a point of reference complicates everything. I mean GW actually was smart enough to address this issue before any real rules were given to the reader in the way the book was formatted.

Coming from a Magic:The Gathering background this is really cut and dry to me. Codex says death ray does X. BRB says codex ALWAYS overrides that's written. Is there something missing here....
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post #93 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-21-12, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
I'm sorry, we must be focusing on different parts of the rule. I read that shots at flyers can only be resolved as snap shots. I read the word resolved as determined. So going off of just these basic components I see that shots without a ballistic skill can never be snap shot thereby negating anything from the death ray; which is why I feel that although you can certainly hit the flyer it cannot be determined because it was not a snap shot.

We can at least agree that when the Doom Scythe goes into skyfire mode, it can hit, damage and possibly destroy because the 'shots' don't have to be resolved as snap shots against flyers. But then it gets back to the argument when it gets infantry in the line as well.

Regardless I believe we've reached the point of impasse.

I agree, to an extent. I will stay with saying it can hit both though. FAQ is the only real way to resolve our conflict (unless the FAQ's a death ray and the conversation's a flyer... then we'll debate again).

I apologize if the shield thing was confusing. I was trying to point out that while there are weapons that may target a specific model or hit a certain point, they damage multiple models and it all counts as shooting.

I appreciate you keeping the debates mostly civil though guys In the end it up to the opponent and this is just a game!

That it is. And of course, there's a bit (admittedly small and right at the start) about resolving rules conflicts...
Comments in cyan again. I'm not saying anything more in this unless it's completely necessary.

Last edited by Septok; 07-21-12 at 04:40 PM.
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post #94 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-21-12, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Starsplice View Post
Snap shooting has nothing to do with the rules here. The deathbeam draws a line, anything under it is auto hit. That's the rule. Skyfire has nothing to do with it. Snap fire has nothing to do with it. The codex always is the highest rule, no matter what the BRB says.

Page 7 of the BRB under Basic Versus Advanced: "Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon, unusual skills, or because they are not normal infantry models. The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant codex. WHERE ADVANCED RULES APPLY TO A SPECIFIC MODEL, THEY ALWAYS OVERRIDE ANY CONTRADICTING BASIC RULES."
That is a veeeeerrrrry good point



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Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post

If I want to fire my Tesla Destructor at a Flyer with my full BS, then I may not fire my Death Ray because it would have to snap fire at everything that was not a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature, or Skimmer. And as we've talked about before the Death Ray targets a point on the table, witch is not any of the above. As the Death Ray is then forced to fire snap shots, it can not be fired because it doesn't use BS to hit.
I know it says on the Skyfire rule that you use normal BS shooting at skimmers, but where does it actually say that you snap fire at them normally?

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Originally Posted by mcmuffin View Post
This thread has needlessly gone on too long. Shooting at flyers requires a snap shot. Death ray does not shoot at anything, pick a point and draw a line 3D6" long. Anything touched by the line takes a S10 AP1 hit. This is over, there is no argument to the contrary since all these stupid arguments about snap shots are irrelevant, the death ray automatically hits anything under the line. The rules for the gun are simple, please read them.
That is a pretty simple summary, However not to start off another heated debate again but does the death ray have a shooting mode (as in skyfire or standard) because of the way the rule is written it just hits everything and the codex was written for 6th and just released in 5th and all the rule says is that othe weapons on the vehicle must shoot at one of the units hit.

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow

Last edited by falcoso; 07-21-12 at 10:54 PM.
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post #95 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-21-12, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
I know it says on the Skyfire rule that you use normal BS shooting at skimmers, but where does it actually say that you snap fire at them normally?
No you fire at them normally, it's just that weapons with Skyfire don't have to snap shot at them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by falcoso View Post
That is a pretty simple summary, However not to start off another heated debate again but does the death ray have a shooting mode (as in skyfire or standard) because of the way the rule is written it just hits everything and the codex was written for 6th and just released in 5th and all the rule says is that othe weapons on the vehicle must shoot at one of the units hit.
It does not have a mode. It just fires. However, if you decide to Skyfire the Tesla Destructor, then I must fire the Skyfire the Death Ray as well. And seeing how if Skyfire shot doesn't target a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature, or Skimmer, it must snap shot, then I can not fire my Death Ray as it does not use BS to hit.

Peace, Love, and Mass Destruction

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Orks in 6th Edition W:9 L:9 D:3

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F*** that, Barrel rolling monolith all the way.
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post #96 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-22-12, 02:59 AM
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Someone send email to GW? Maybe they be settling argument for sure....

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post #97 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-22-12, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Corporal Punishment 69 View Post
Someone send email to GW? Maybe they be settling argument for sure....
lawl, you must be new to 40k. you can ask but chances are you will get 3 different answers if you ask the same question 3 times. If they had the answer they would have just put it in the BRB or made the rules so they worded with the weapon.

It takes a pack of Wolves to tree a Lion... here is hopping the new DA codex reflects that.
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post #98 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-22-12, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post
No you fire at them normally, it's just that weapons with Skyfire don't have to snap shot at them.



It does not have a mode. It just fires. However, if you decide to Skyfire the Tesla Destructor, then I must fire the Skyfire the Death Ray as well. And seeing how if Skyfire shot doesn't target a Flyer, Flying Monstrous Creature, or Skimmer, it must snap shot, then I can not fire my Death Ray as it does not use BS to hit.
This is funny, it's like you recognize that it can't be used to shoot flyers but then say if I'm only targeting ground units then the death ray still hits flyers because I'm not shooting flyers. Can't wait for an official FAQ
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post #99 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-22-12, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Da Joka View Post
No you fire at them normally, it's just that weapons with Skyfire don't have to snap shot at them.
Ah right yeah because they have to snap shot at anything on the ground - that makes sense thanks

Me: To be honest im amazed there isn't a chaos god of not revising or at least chaos god of procrastination

MidnightSun: There will be, when enough people do it. Y'know when the Eldar were all engaging in their hedonism and Slaanesh ripped open the Eye of Terror with his creation? Slaanesh will have NOTHING on the God of Procrastination, and his vile minions will carve the galaxy asunder in a thousand year reign of blood.... Tomorrow
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post #100 of 135 (permalink) Old 07-22-12, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Emperors Knights View Post
This is funny, it's like you recognize that it can't be used to shoot flyers but then say if I'm only targeting ground units then the death ray still hits flyers because I'm not shooting flyers. Can't wait for an official FAQ

Did you read anything I posted? The Reason why the can hit flyers is because they DON'T target them.

The Death Ray shoots a line, after you figure out where that line is, it's shot is resolved. Then Anything under that line is hit.

All I'm saying is if the Doomscythe wants to Skyfire, it can not fire it's Death Ray, because it can NEVER target a flyer (or anything else for that matter). And there for must fire a snap shot, witch it can't do because it doesn't roll to hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcmuffin View Post
This thread has needlessly gone on too long. Shooting at flyers requires a snap shot. Death ray does not shoot at anything, pick a point and draw a line 3D6" long. Anything touched by the line takes a S10 AP1 hit. This is over, there is no argument to the contrary since all these stupid arguments about snap shots are irrelevant, the death ray automatically hits anything under the line. The rules for the gun are simple, please read them.


This is all you need to know. They don't need to FAQ it. People just need to read the rules. No ifs ands or buts you take a hit. Plain and simple.

Peace, Love, and Mass Destruction

Necrons in 6th Edition W: 28 L: 9 D: 5
Orks in 6th Edition W:9 L:9 D:3

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F*** that, Barrel rolling monolith all the way.
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