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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-01-12, 10:42 PM
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Well I guess its just going to end up one of those rules that everyone will set a house rule for.


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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-01-12, 10:57 PM
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This is a hard one and will ultimately need a FAQ to clarify things.

For me I think the answer comes in the fact that it is a purchased upgrade. If you purchased a warscythes for each lord would each lord count his attacks using the warscythe? Yes. If you purchased a sempiternal weave for each lord would each one make his saves using a 2+ armor save? Yes, and so on and so forth.

If you purchased 5 mindshackle scarab upgrades (one for each) then I'd say you get to use that upgrade as long as the requirements are met. In this case, as long as all 5 lords are in base to base contact with their victim.
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At the start of the Assault phase, after assault moves have been made, but before any blows are struck, randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs.
If that is the case, then I think each lord should get a chance to use his MS's just as he would get to use his warscythe or 2+ armor save, etc. You paid the points for that upgrade, why (like the other upgrades mentioned) would you not be able to use them if the requirements to do so were met?

If that means an MC or IC running around by himself has to take 5 tests and suffer the results of any failures (i.e. multiple D3 hits on himself), so be it.

I see the "randomly select an enemy model in base contact with the bearer of the MS's," as describing what to do if your model is in base to base with more than one model, rather than a requirement for the wargear to be used.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-02-12, 01:05 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by docgeo View Post
I agree with this stance. If they would have to do D3 for every fail that would just be TO BROKEN.

Doc
I dont see it being broken if he would have to hit himself 5 times if failing 5 times, even if he failed only once that takes him out of this round of combat and he will probably die in that combat anyway.

There are tons of other stuff I see as allot more "broken" than an ability that makes 1 model hit itself in CC. Heck Grey Knights have the grenade that makes ALL your units in the assault hit themselves if they fail an Initiative test (if I'm not mistaken).

BA have the dread with talons that can wipe out an entire unit of 10+ models in one round of assault.



To me this is the ONLY assault defence that the Necrons have that is really effective. It's also only seem over powered when you charge the unit with a solo model or small unit. Charge the 5 dudes with 29 orks boy and a nob with power claw, I'd expect the Necrons to die but you never know.



To me the model should have to do 5 tests and for every failed one it should hit itself.


Here is another way to look at it.

What if 5 Terminators with TH/SS charge 5 dudes with MSS. The rule says you have to randomly select a model to hit it's own unit. This gives the 5 Terminators a chance to be able to hit back instead of all of the automatically hitting themselves.

This should however also mean that if the same model was selected more than once it should hit it's own unit again.

or do you mean if the same model was selected 5 times randomly it would only hit it's own unit D3 once?

Last edited by MadCowCrazy; 03-02-12 at 01:10 AM.
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-02-12, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post
I dont see it being broken if he would have to hit himself 5 times if failing 5 times, even if he failed only once that takes him out of this round of combat and he will probably die in that combat anyway.

There are tons of other stuff I see as allot more "broken" than an ability that makes 1 model hit itself in CC. Heck Grey Knights have the grenade that makes ALL your units in the assault hit themselves if they fail an Initiative test (if I'm not mistaken).

BA have the dread with talons that can wipe out an entire unit of 10+ models in one round of assault.



To me this is the ONLY assault defence that the Necrons have that is really effective. It's also only seem over powered when you charge the unit with a solo model or small unit.



To me the model should have to do 5 tests and for every failed one it should hit itself.


Here is another way to look at it.

What if 5 Terminators with TH/SS charge 5 dudes with MSS. The rule says you have to randomly select a model to hit it's own unit. This gives the 5 Terminators a chance to be able to hit back instead of all of the automatically hitting themselves.

This should however also mean that if the same model was selected more than once it should hit it's own unit again.

or do you mean if the same model was selected 5 times randomly it would only hit it's own unit D3 once?
I think you have secretly uncover half of the rational to why people believe the wargears effect doesn't just resolve one at a time, and that reason is unconsciously (or consciously) they are trying to nerf it. However as it wasn't addressed in the FaQ I still fully believe that not interpreting it as resolving each individual is groundless.

However its hardly over powered as the ability itself is useless against most targets of low value. Who really cares of 3-4 of the orcs that charged you attack themselves?


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Two Slaanesh daemons on the first go...hmm I guess the fates have spoken emperors children here I come
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-02-12, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by MadCowCrazy View Post

or do you mean if the same model was selected 5 times randomly it would only hit it's own unit D3 once?
This or if a single MC or independent Character had to do multiple hits against itself. Which would likely results in many more possible attacks than said unit had as a base attack stat.


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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-02-12, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by docgeo View Post
This or if a single MC or independent Character had to do multiple hits against itself. Which would likely results in many more possible attacks than said unit had as a base attack stat.


Doc
A unit/model can have 10+ attacks, its the only stat that doesn't have a cap. There are plenty of rules/items in the game that increase the amount of attacks you have so I don't find that as a solid argument.

I'm of the opinion that it takes multiple tests and does D3 per failure.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-02-12, 07:19 AM
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attacks still cap at 10. ONLY exception is AV which caps at 14.
This is made more complicated by bpnus attacks not counting (eg 2CCW and charge) or random attacks (eg 2D6) which can reach their own maximums... its essentially just never an issue since I can't think of a way to reach 11A on profile.

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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-03-12, 08:59 PM
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attacks still cap at 10. ONLY exception is AV which caps at 14.
This is made more complicated by bpnus attacks not counting (eg 2CCW and charge) or random attacks (eg 2D6) which can reach their own maximums... its essentially just never an issue since I can't think of a way to reach 11A on profile.
Sorry perhaps I should've been clearer, your explanation is what i was referring too. From a FAQ IIRC.

You should easily consider these D3 attacks "bonus attacks" since they do not modify the model's base characteristic.

The Eldar, more than any other army, should not only look at the output of each unit individually, but the synergy of multiple units together and their role in the force as a whole. - Fable

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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-03-12, 09:35 PM
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Sorry perhaps I should've been clearer, your explanation is what i was referring too. From a FAQ IIRC.

You should easily consider these D3 attacks "bonus attacks" since they do not modify the model's base characteristic.
Got to agree their is no reason what so ever to interpret the D3 as not being bonus attacks, as they are not a bonus from double wielding or any regular attack situation. In fact the whole D3 part kinda hints that it is a random bonus attack (Hence more akin to a daemon weapon)


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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 03-04-12, 08:40 AM
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Um, the D3 attacks has nothing at all to do with the stat cap. The 2 are completely seperate.
For a start the D3 'attacks' are nothing of the sort... its D3 hits.

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