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post #1 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 05:14 AM Thread Starter
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Default Space Wolves shrank from legion to chapter?

in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
in 30k, they were a legion

they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?

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post #2 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MontytheMighty View Post
in 40k, Space Wolves have no successor chapters (other than the failed Wolf Brothers)
in 30k, they were a legion

they went from a legion to a chapter with no successors...what happened to the rest of the Wolves?
My guess would be because a large portion of the original legions were made up of stock from terra where as now the SW only get recruits from fenris. Replacing casualties would become slower. Wolves are still one of the bigger chapters though (not as big as black templars but they recruit from many planets.)
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post #3 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:07 AM Thread Starter
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Wolves are still one of the bigger chapters though
in 40k, aren't chapters all roughly 1000 strong?
when people talk about how big the Ultramarines chapter is, they're really referring the the UM and all their successors right?
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post #4 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:16 AM
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All chapters are roughly 1000. The Space Wolves Great Companies are about 120 strong and there's twelve of them so their closer to 1500. The Templars are several thousand strong, divided into many crusades. The Salamanders are smaller having smaller companies and less companies.

As for the Space Wolves size they would have taken a lot of casualties during the heresy, fist against the thousand sons then the night lords and alpha legion (both of which ambushed the wolves at varying points in the Heresy) as well as casualties sustained during the scouring.

Also perhaps there were some second founding chapters from the wolves we just don't have the records of it.

Mainly though it's just one of those issues that popped up when the average legion size was set at 100,000 rather than 10,000. It really messes up a lot of other numbers and stuff.

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post #5 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:17 AM
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Yes but wolves are around2000 and blacktemplars are around 5-6000
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post #6 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:21 AM
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They had the Wolfbrothers. The were wiped out due to mutations.

Also keep in mind the Wolves were pretty beaten up and after taking out the TS. Plus the scouring.

And the Space Wolves are much bigger than a codex chapter. Each Great Company varies, but usually a number around 200 is given. So something around 2000-2500 wolves are around.
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post #7 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:25 AM
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There are a number of things you need to consider.

Going back to the Great Crusade, it's implied that the Wolves were involved in the sanction of at least one other legion prior to the Heresy, which means that, even by then, they were probably a below average sized legion because of the likely casualties sustained in an astartes vs astartes war.

Then came the Siege of Prospero, where the Wolves took significant casualties fighting the Sons. Then Russ still dispatched an entire Great Company to finish the job. Following that, they were ambushed by a numerically superior Alpha Legion and then had to return to Terra to help fight off the retreating traitors.

Then came the Scouring, where the majority of the loyalist legions who weren't already pretty much wiped out got brutalised retaking what was lost during the Heresy. So by then, they would have been drastically reduced from their original numbers.

And they did have one successor chapter, the Wolf Brothers, which basically comprised of half the forces of the Wolves that were left (including gear, armour etc). Unfortunately for them, the Wolf Brothers fell to mutation and had to be disbanded.

And the Wolves are still considerably larger than other chapters. If I remember correctly, by the end of Battle of the Fang, despite nearly an entire Great Company getting destroyed, the Wolves still numbered around 2000 warriors, twice as large as a normal chapter.

Edit: Damnit, ninja'd multiple times. Also to add, the Wolves can't have successors because their geneseed goes ape shit with mutation if they're away from Fenris.

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post #8 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 06:47 AM
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What i understand on numbers within Chapters is that not all chapters are equal in numbers.

In theory each chapter has 1,000+, but some are dying, some chapter are down to less than 100.

Post heresy each Legion that remained loyal were either eager or were forced to break up, some legions had 10's of thousands of Space Marines, but broke up to form many 1st & 2nd founding chapters.

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post #9 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 03:36 PM
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Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.

By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.
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post #10 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-28-11, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaivex View Post
Not to mention if one legion kept 10,000-100,000 astartes while all the others broke into 1000 man chapters, specifically so no one man had that much power, i could see some tensions forming and the wolves becoming more of a liability than an asset.

By keeping roughly twice as many men as the average chapter, they kept there honor by ignoring the codex, but they didn't make themselves a target for concern.
They may have more than twice the number of a Codex Chapter now but at the break up of the Legions it would have been monumentally stupid to do anything other than split into equal 1,000 strong Chapters. The Imperial Fists were fired upon by the Imperial Navy for dissenting, do you think the SW would have received any warmer a response if they'd 'rebelled' as well?

I imagine the SW have acted in a similar manner to the Black Templars, building up their numbers to the current level rather than starting from such a position.

Really the size of Chapters has been the only part of the Codex that was ever rigorously enforced, the rest is more of a 'take it or leave it' matter.
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