Space Wolves shrank from legion to chapter? - Page 7 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #61 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-17-14, 04:08 AM
Senior Member
hailene's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 2,215
Reputation: 17
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists.
Couple points I'd like to make.

You're mixing up two events, The Dominion of Fire and the First War of Armageddon. DoF had 50,000 berserkers. Armageddon had an unspecified number of berserkers there.

Also remember that the Space Marines by no means shouldered most of the war. There were millions--possibly many hundreds of millions--of fighting men on Armageddon. The Space Marines, as is their modus operandi, concentrated their limited forces in the most critical of battlefields for greatest effect.

As Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift thought, "The enemy host was forgotten. The devil-lords of the Cruor Praetoria – if any still walked among us – were ignored. They were lesser threats, relatively speaking, that lesser warriors could deal with. Angron. Lord of the Twelfth Legion. This was why we’d come."
hailene is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #62 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-17-14, 04:23 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,685
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
What does that mean to more complicated missions to the Imperium though? For example... look at the First War for Armageddon and please look at the numbers of Wolves and Grey Knights. Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists. Mine you, from what I remember the Wolves didn't even send their entire "chapter."
How does that have to do with anything I said, the wolves don't follow the codex, they could have had 20 000 warriors there. I pointed out the 1000 marine limit could be mis interpreted.
Reaper45 is offline  
post #63 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-17-14, 09:39 AM
Dazed and confused.
 
Khorne's Fist's Avatar
Khorne's Fist's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8,496
Reputation: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
Tell me based on the interpretation of the codex does this battle make sense in which the winner defeats 50,000 bezerkers, Angron, At least 12 blood thirsters, hundreds of thousands of daemons and add another several hundred thousand cultists. Mine you, from what I remember the Wolves didn't even send their entire "chapter."
Unlike other entries in the timeline, it doesn't mention how many companies Grimnar brought to Armageddon. As hailene said, there were millions of IG and PDF there as well to do the heavy lifting, while the SWs concentrated their efforts on crucial points in the battle line.
Khorne's Fist is offline  
 
post #64 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-17-14, 10:25 AM
The Emperor Protects
 
Angel of Blood's Avatar
Angel of Blood's Flag is: Wales
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,262
Reputation: 41
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckcrawford View Post
I would say that the Wolves and Black Templar are two chapters that work closely with the head of Terra. In fact it was mentioned in the Heresy that the Wolves only answered to Malcador and the Emperor. Would not be surprised for the Wolves and Black Templar being supported and protected by Inquisition and High Lords of Terra.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
I can see that most of the inquisition would see the benefits to keeping the wolves on their good side.

The ones against them would be the radical faction.
Conversely, I see both of these chapters as ones that don't work closely with the Council of Terra or the other higher authorities. In a classic 30k/40k turnaround, they have both gone from being perhaps the closest and most undoubtedly loyal of Legions, to being highly suspect. In the Crusade and Heresy days, the Wolves were Malcadors Legion it would seem, through him they and Russ it would seem, were almost beyond reproach of the others, for example, when Dorn ordered all Legions that were not his own off of Terra at the onset of the Heresy, he could not send the Wolves away as they answered to Malcador and not him. The Fists, were also obviously as close to Terra as any Legion could be, and worked closer than any other.

Switch to 40k, the Wolves don't answer to anybody seemingly, they utterly disregard the codex, they do as they choose and they don't give a damn about what the High Lords of the Inquisition want, the First War for Armageddon showcases this perfectly. It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over. The Templars are another, where as when they were part of the Imperial Fists, they were the praetorians of Terra, they now range away as far as they choose, with a chapter number that no body truly knows, and once again don't exactly follow the codex.
Angel of Blood is offline  
post #65 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-17-14, 05:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,685
Reputation: 10
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Conversely, I see both of these chapters as ones that don't work closely with the Council of Terra or the other higher authorities. In a classic 30k/40k turnaround, they have both gone from being perhaps the closest and most undoubtedly loyal of Legions, to being highly suspect. In the Crusade and Heresy days, the Wolves were Malcadors Legion it would seem, through him they and Russ it would seem, were almost beyond reproach of the others, for example, when Dorn ordered all Legions that were not his own off of Terra at the onset of the Heresy, he could not send the Wolves away as they answered to Malcador and not him. The Fists, were also obviously as close to Terra as any Legion could be, and worked closer than any other.

Switch to 40k, the Wolves don't answer to anybody seemingly, they utterly disregard the codex, they do as they choose and they don't give a damn about what the High Lords of the Inquisition want, the First War for Armageddon showcases this perfectly. It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over. The Templars are another, where as when they were part of the Imperial Fists, they were the praetorians of Terra, they now range away as far as they choose, with a chapter number that no body truly knows, and once again don't exactly follow the codex.
Keep in mind that Bjorn is still the moral compass of the chapter, he's one of the few that knows perfectly well what the imperium was like, and that the emperor would never stand for the inquisition's abuse of power or the eccesarcity's BS.

If anything they're the one chapter is is holding true to what the astartes once were, proud warriors who enjoyed life and knew how to have fun.
Reaper45 is offline  
post #66 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-18-14, 05:22 AM
Cruel Commissar
 
Beaviz81's Avatar
Beaviz81's Flag is: Norway
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 856
Reputation: 6
Default

Actually Bjorn let the inq get away with it, but won the price of preventing a devastating civil war. Just read up about the First War of Armageddon and that aftermath. And even so the inq knows the SW are willing to start a civil war so its an example of cooler heads prevailing.

My story about the commissars Zachary Carrus and Michelle Ionza and their life and crimes https://www.heresy-online.net/forums/...d.php?t=123690
Beaviz81 is offline  
post #67 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 05:55 AM
Craw-Daddy
 
ckcrawford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 4,416
Reputation: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
How does that have to do with anything I said, the wolves don't follow the codex, they could have had 20 000 warriors there. I pointed out the 1000 marine limit could be mis interpreted.
Right on. It sounded like you thought it was concrete across the board.
ckcrawford is offline  
post #68 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 09:33 AM
Dazed and confused.
 
Khorne's Fist's Avatar
Khorne's Fist's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8,496
Reputation: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
It would almost seem that in Malcadors death and the Emperors ascension to the Golden Throne, the Wolves were unshackled as it were, and did not see fit to serve the bureaucrats that took over.
I'd say it was a bit more gradual than that. Russ was around for 200 years after the Heresy, during which time the High Lords and embryonic Ecclesiarchy would have taken firm control if the Imperium, but threaded softly around the primarchs, who could very well have collectively wrested control back if things didn't go too well. I think their disobedient streak would have risen concurrently with the rise of organised religion after the primarchs had all died or gone walkabout, especially as they had someone like Bjorn who fought for the ideals of the Great Crusade and knew it went against everything the Emperor stood for. Over the Millenia as the beaurocracy and religion took hold, the Wolves would become more inclined to say "You know what? Fuck you."
Khorne's Fist is offline  
post #69 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 04:01 PM
The Emperor Protects
 
Angel of Blood's Avatar
Angel of Blood's Flag is: Wales
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,262
Reputation: 41
Default

Oh of course. I would love to see their relationship with the remaining Primarchs once Russ was gone.
Angel of Blood is offline  
post #70 of 78 (permalink) Old 08-19-14, 04:44 PM
Dazed and confused.
 
Khorne's Fist's Avatar
Khorne's Fist's Flag is: Ireland
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8,496
Reputation: 105
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angel of Blood View Post
Oh of course. I would love to see their relationship with the remaining Primarchs once Russ was gone.
Have we any idea in what order and over what time scale the remaining primarchs started heading for the hills, or dying? It would be interesting to see if the Khan, Russ, Corax and Vulkan all got it into their heads to go it alone in or around the same time.
Khorne's Fist is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome