It does indeed throw into question their loyalty. I will have to re-read that book, but how do we know he was referring to that? I for one do not believe the Lion was tainted, and that Luther was. Even if he was however, the DA are currently some of the most devout in the imperium, so all debts are paid. He wounded him because he was powered by chaos, this is not in doubt. Feel free to disagree but the Lion was the one fighting for the imperium and it specifically says luther was tainted with jealousy

 

However, in Fallen Angel, we see first hand that Luther did try and control chaos.

It is possible that Astellan truly believes Luther was loyal and the Lion was a fence sitter. However, the only real evidence Astellan shows about the Lion's character in question, is that battle against the orks.

The only problem with this as well, is that it isn't unreasonable to think the Primarchs sacrificed human populations for the "greater good."And there are many instances where primarchs and other generals of the Imperium have done things that we would consider unjust.

 

Astelan could very well be deluded, but the main reason I don't buy the Fallen side of the story is still the outcome of the fight between the Lion and Luther.

The only plausible way (to me) that a traitor Lion could have been struck down by Luther is if there was never any duel, rather, Luther and those loyal to him somehow managed to engage Lion in a 500 on 1 ambush or something like that (even then, my money would still be on the primarch)

however that still leaves the question: why would Luther go insane if he believed the Lion had betrayed the Imperium

his insanity seems to indicate he had fallen to Chaos.

 

perhapes Luthor realised the folly of what he had done. It is said that he is cried out in the rock waiting for the Lion to return to forgive him. It is also entirely possible that with being exiled on Caliban like many of his brethern that had been sent back to garrison the homeworld, Astellan believed that the Lion was the traitor and not Luthor because he saw the Lion as having an agenda and trying to keep those that would be utteerly loyal to his orders with him.

its difficult one for Astelan went from being a loyal chapter master to a fallen and i don't thinnk even Gav Thorpe was expecting the amount of chatter that went on when he wrote those immortal lines "he was waiting to see who won"
can you take the word of fallen over a loyal Dark Angel...or is there something more to it this is one of those debates that will rage for ever i think and that shows tthe mastery of Angels of Darkness....even after all these years his book can still invoke such passion.

hopefuly the nexrt angels novel in the HH will clear it all up once and for all.

 

Nothing Astelan says can be taken as fact, Boreas constantly counters Astelans points or points out a flaw, Astelan never adresses this, he just moves onto his next point.

Fallen Angels further cements that the Lion was loyal. He is clearly enraged by the traitors, showing mo remorse when he kills them, just anger. His words in Fallen Angels and his actions are all those of a loyalist. And then all you really need to do is read the pages about Caliban, Luther makes no claim that the Lion is a traitor to the Imperium or was fence sitting. He says the Lion and the Imperium betrayed them and casts his oaths of allegiance away, declaring independence. He has clearly enhanced himself with abilities he found from the books.

I had no doubts in Jonson before I read Fallen Angels, but when I did, it fully cemented that he was a loyalist.

 

and that AOB is why i called you the lion

 

Why is Jonson alseep in the Rock? he cant be waken? I think the Imperium is in Dire need of a Primarch right now. THink of this, A Primarchs Returns and Leads a new Crusade to Banish the Chaos Filth that plagues the galaxy.

 

The lion is in suspended animation, prob not unlike that a space marine can enter, however he has to be woken up from it by someone. And as of now and several codexes later the DA have yet to learn that the lion is rigth in the rock with them, only the watchers in the dark that put him there are aware.

What luthor continues to babble would suggest that on at least some level he knows the lion is near...

As for fence sitting, NO. In the second HH novel about the DAs we learn that the lion took his honor guard to libberate several superheavy tanks from traitor mechanicus to help defend terra.

Its also not beyond the chaos gods to slow, or prevent safe warp travel to terra if it will serve there ends.

 

As for fence sitting, NO. In the second HH novel about the DAs we learn that the lion took his honor guard to libberate several superheavy tanks from traitor mechanicus to help defend terra.

I'd re-read that if I were you - they were liberated to give to the Iron Warriors - not really to defend Terra I'm afraid

~O

 

By asleep it's generally assumed that he is in stasis, watched over by the enigmatic watchers in the dark. Who knows what they plan to do with him, or when(if) they plan to wake him up. And no one else in the galaxy apart from perhaps the Emperor and the insane babbling Luther know that Jonson is in the secret chamber deep within the Rock.

It's also heavily debated as to what effect the return of a primarch would have. Best outcome of course is that Jonson for example returns, is welcomed with open arms and celebrations, regales control of the Dark Angeks and placed in charge of a crusade and kick incredible amounts of ass. But then there's a whole host of other (likely) outcomes. First, how is a son of the Emperor going to view the Imperium as it stands now, it's almost everything the Emperor did not want it to be and totally different to when the primarch was last up and about. So will he accept the Imperium as it is, or start making waves or even conflict.

Then how are the High Lords going to react? Wil they see a primarch as a savour or threat? Citizens across the Imperium are going to react in different ways to a son of the Emperor returning. This is a being of legend, alot would demand he be given power or outright start worshipping him as a demi-god of their own god the Emperor. Sone guard regiments would likely flock to him, never mind the astartes. The high lords would be significantly worried about such a being having so much respect and power, even if the primarch doesn't want that power. Then what happens if they try and silence him and fail(or succeed) a massive amount of astartes would likely get severly fucked off and begin to fuck shit up in an extraordinary way.

There's so many other possible results and outcomes, but being forced to use my mobile its not practical to keep on elaborating. I think I've made the point though. Dont expect sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere, as we all know that is just not how shit works in 40k, unless of course your the Ultramarines written by Matt Guillim- I mean Ward.

 

Somewhat related; How is Luther still alive in the 41st millennium? Is he in stasis too?

 

space marines live for along time man and luther is not in stasis he just rambles alot in rock saying lion will return and forgive him for what he done which is more then enough evidents to say luther was the the traiter and feeling guilty of what he has done

 

No Luther is in stasis, he's kept in (yet another) secret chamber within the Rock, it's very secure, heavily locked and stasis sealed. Can only be unlocked by the Lion Sword and only the current Grand Master knows Luther is there and every so often he will go to interrogate him personally, but all Luther does is babble incoherently about the Lion being near, the watchers taking him and that he will one day return to forgive him.

 

Luther is also used as an oracle to find some of the Fallen during the rare moments of lucidness or has that been retconned out?

 

He didn't capture the seige guns with the intention of giving them to Perturabo. He went to Diamat to secure them so that Horus could not capture them and use them against the Emperor, which still serves the goal of protecting Terra. Then along comes the loyalist fleet to go and take down Horus, he can't go himself as his legion is still scattered across the shield worlds. So the logical choice is to give the Istvaan force the weapons, imagine if the other four legions wern't traitors, with those guns Horus would have been crushed easily. So what if he asked for Perturabos vote to be the next Warmaster, end of the day he still went to Diamat to safe guard the Imperium from those weapons

 

The cool thing about this, is that we will now be getting a decent author to write about the Dark Angels. I really didn't like Fallen Angel. And Descent of Angels tested my patience. No that it was bad, but clearly not what anyone of us expected.

I like the fact that Gav Thorpe will be writing the next Dark Angels edditions to the Heresy. It about fricken time. Plus he may add more to aid the Fallen Dark Angel's side of the story... who knows. After all, he did write that piece that questions the Dark Angel's alliegence.

 

I like the fact that Gav Thorpe will be writing the next Dark Angels edditions to the Heresy.

I think ADB is writing the next DA story and I believe the 'was the Lion a traitor?' argument will be forever settled in favour of the Lion being loyal throughout.

The 'sitting on the fence' question/mystery was never meant to become so prominent in the lore and is not protected from elaboration (as opposed to, say, lost legion stuff).

 

Sorry to post twice but I thought it was interesting that the siege guns were not taken immidiately with Horus first force staged and destroying the forges before the Lion came. Also interesting that the Lion knew they'd still be there after the destruction layed upon the planet. According to the recollection, Horus had 8 weeks to secure those siege weapons.

What else is interesting, is that these siege weapons are never described in any other fluff. Even the tearing down of the Walls of terra. It is claimed that one of the titans was responsible for the breaching of the walls.

That and since we don't hear very much about the Iron Warriors during the siege of Terra gets me thinking. That perhaps Perturabo may have been more loyal than expected. Afterall, Perturabo is stated in Horus Rising, as hating Horus.

 

Afterall, Perturabo is stated in Horus Rising, as hating Horus.

He is?

Look guys, this whole "fence-sitter" argument is never-ending, with some ferociously arguing that the Lion was a loyalist through and through (AoB ) and others more open to the idea.

Personally I see it as obviously intentional by the lore masters that the Lion is viewed by some as at least a "fence-sitter". I think it adds a welcome plot twist to his character and the Dark Angels as a whole. Personally I hope Thorpe (or whoever is going to be tackling them in the Heresy) will stick to this ambiguous nature, and keep up the pretence (or is it?) of him at least bearing traitorous sympathies and/or the all important doubt that could result in him being viewed as a "fence-sitter", and above all the mystery.

 

Horus didn't think the Lion or anyone would anticipate the move for the siege guns, he probably thought he was still the only one who knew about their commission. Hence the rag tag force sent to collect them, there was no reason to rush it and risk the loyalists getting a request for help out to the other loyalists. But unfortunately for him, he underestimated the Lion, just like he underestimated Guilliman, Sanguinius and the Khan.

 

I just finished Angels of Darkness earlier (great book, btw) and am actually kinda looking at the current DA in a bad light as:

I'm actually believing what Astelan's side of things as honestly very possible (if not completely true.) Can someone offer up evidence that what he said to Boreas wasn't incorrect enough to warrant it's dismissal?

 

You've read Age of Darkness?? I hate you....

Regarding Astelan. In Fallen Angels, at no point do the astartes on Caliban under Luther claim or believe the Lion is a traitor to the Imperium, rather they believe he betrayed Caliban. They think he knew it was tainted and therefore the Imperium would destroy it and that they had been sent back to be destroyed along with it. They in the end themselves renounce their oathes to the Inperium, the Emperor and the Lion, declaring themselves free of Imperial rule. So they are definetly the traitors here, the Lion isn't even vaguely suggested to be a traitor to the Imperium.

 

This topic has been done to death many times.

All I can add is that Astellen (can't remember correct spelling) could have genuinely believed that the Lion was a traitor. The evidence that he would have had could have given that impression, even if it could be wrong.

However, i'm not sure how, if at all, this could fit in with Luthur getting uber chaos powers. If the Lion had turned why would he have not been welcomed by Luthur?

 

Pretty much. There are SO MANY THREADS on this topic. Its insane.

And luther is a different story. Hes pretty much fighting against the Imperium for Caliban's independence. There isn't evidence he literally allied with Horus

 

First of all. The version of the Fallen Angels in Angel of Darkness can be a lie because they are corrupted by chaos and chaos lies.

Reasons to believe that Lion is loyal:

He kill a lot of Sons of Horus

He hate horus

He give the weapons to Perturabo to be the next warmaster but at that moment anyone knew that Perturabo was a traitor.

Luther is corrupted.

Caliban is the thing that corrupts everything, the problem is the planet.

In the Siege of Terra, Erebus feel from the warp that if Lion and Leman arrive and they are almost there, Horus will lose and he tell that to Horus, for that Horus low the shields.

 

First of all. The version of the Fallen Angels in Angel of Darkness can be a lie because they are corrupted by chaos and chaos lies.

Thats not necessarly true. I believe if you said to a chaos god that he lied to you, he'd probably say "so what? go fuck yourself." But in another instance, he could probably defend himself and say it was all true, according to a certain point of view and light.

The corruption of chaos doesn't just touch someone, and boom the person is a heretic. It manifests itself, and grows with weakness in the individuals character, feelings, and past. For example, doubt.

Reasons to believe that Lion is loyal:

He kill a lot of Sons of Horus

He hate horus

So he hates Horus... but does that make him loyal? This whole time and throughout the entire book, the Lion's true intent has always been changed, the truth hidden from both reader and his own men. Are we really to finally believe the Lion's true intent at the end of the novel? (I'm playing devils advocate right now. :laugh: I actually like the idea that the Lion trusted Perturabo. The two had a lot in common.)

He give the weapons to Perturabo to be the next warmaster but at that moment anyone knew that Perturabo was a traitor.

Well let see... we have Perturabo who has entered a system which had just recently been controlled by the Warmaster. "Its wealth, and supplies," had been earlier mentioned to play a grand part in the Warmaster's plot. And the Lion goes, "oh look! Perturabo!" How weird does that sound? Lets say your stealing from bully "Big Bob" and after you have everything in your sack and your about to leave his house, you see your friend little Timmy right by the door? Wouldn't that for one shock the fuck out of you?

Luther is corrupted.

But the Lion cannot be corrupted? The Lion was also raised in Caliban, out in the fucking wild. To think from all the possibilities about things not or being tainted that the Lion would after all that be perfectly pure is forgive me for saying... kind of crazy. After destroying the tainted Knightly Orders, he kept all their secrets.

Caliban is the thing that corrupts everything, the problem is the planet.

Remember there was a reason for Luther falling to chaos. He doubted the Primarch and he doubted the Imperium. Luther by all respects may have had more influence throughout the legion than the Lion had. There is evidence of that throughout both books. And because of this, I believe that the Chaos Gods did go after Luther instead of the Lion. Though I believe the taint did not corrupt the Lion, I believe that the Lion grew up with some traits that helped him survive the taint, but actually hurt him within his mortal life.

1. He was a paranoid individual. He believed that even his own men had to keep on gaining level experience to know certain things. He described it as never ending in Fallen Angel.

2. It seemed to me, that he knew Caliban was tainted, and after finding out his own adopted father tried to kill him, he competletely closed his trust to everyone. His homeworld, his father, and the people he spent his life with, could no longer be trusted.

3. This in turn could be a reason why Mike Lee chose these special weapons to be siege weapons and for the person to find it to be Perturabo. Perturabo had a similar personality which actually seemed to end up the other way around.

 

For the Lion and for the the Emperor!
My fav. Primarch, please stop the traitor fluff! Lol

 

I hope I'm not taking this too off-topic with this question.
At the end of Fallen Angels, when Luther and Zahariel have come across the daemon-thing and the ritual, I'm sure that it said that there was something that pointed to this ritual being to contain/repel the beast, not summon it. Am I right about that? Because if this is the case then Luther and his boys didn't really help matters did they?
Slightly more OT, I quite liked the fact that in The First Heretic, the descriptions of the Primarch capsules landing only showed those who would turn traitor. They are listed in Legion number. The first one is the Lion. Fun!

GFP

 

I hope I'm not taking this too off-topic with this question.
At the end of Fallen Angels, when Luther and Zahariel have come across the daemon-thing and the ritual, I'm sure that it said that there was something that pointed to this ritual being to contain/repel the beast, not summon it. Am I right about that? Because if this is the case then Luther and his boys didn't really help matters did they?

You're right. However by this stage Luther's goal wasn't so much to stop the imperials from doing what they were doing, Luther wanted to learn the beasts true name and control/learn from it. Incidentally he would have succeeded if not for Zahariel suffering a change of heart and deciding to withhold the beasts true name.

 

And what about my last reason???

 

I'd like to bring up the story "Call of the Lion." Essentially, Chapter CommanderAstelan is meandering around, Greatly Crusading and he gets reinforcements from Chapter Commander Baleth, a dude from Caliban, since the world has just been rediscovered. They come across a civilizes planet, and Baleth is all ready to go to war, but Astelan is more like "Um... maybe we should talk to them first." They land in a town in order to abduct and interrogate some locals... which I guess the Astartes have no ethical issues with. The town turns out to be a military outpost and they have to fight their way out. The Dark Angels then have a meeting with the equivalent of the UN, a meeting Baleth deliberately makes go violent, and telling Astelan that he will pay, calling him "Terran."

Basically the Dark Angels were kind of dicks. And this was Astelan's first experience with the Calibanite DA's, so it's reasonable to assume that he was rationalizing the Lion's actions and the Fallen's rebellion. He saw what they did and assumed that the Lion, seeing no problem with it, was corrupted. Baleth probably reported to the Lion, who saw the Terrans as "soft" and might fetter him.