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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
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When was Khorne...Born?

I have been a big fan of the Blood god for a while now and I know alot about that scary-looking bloke on the brass throne, but there is one thing that has been troubling me. When was Khorne "born"? (what year, E.g. MXX)

As we all know Slaanesh was born at the fall of the Eldar, around M18 so the other gods must have been born sometime before that. If you know (even very roughly) give me a heads up.

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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 05:48 PM
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he came into being in the middle ages



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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 05:56 PM
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Did they not mention something about it in... The Liber Chaotica? Or where was it?

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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:02 PM
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he came into being in the middle ages
Yeah, when people didn't have fancy guns and had to beat each others' faces in with hammers and gut them with swords. Extract from the Liber Chaotica:

"From the boiling blood sea rose eight mighty creatures, each with the heads of dogs and bodies of lions, and each one yoked with great chains of brass. They climbed forth each mountain and behind them dragged upwards a new mountain from the sea, a mountain of bone and skulls that reached fully ten times the height of the eight peaks around it. Upon its sight, the soldiers of the battle took new heart and rose again from the gore-drenched earth to praise their true lord while the kings and princes threw themselves down in fear as they recognised the true Skull Throne, of which their own had been the palest imitation. And atop the very summit, the embryonic-god screamed his name in a birth cry that echoed and crashed from peak to peak and drove the cowardly mad even as it strengthened the worthy beyond mortal effort.

And the name was Kharneth, our Blood God Khorne."

Yes, the Liber Chaotica deals with Warhammer and not 40k, but I doubt it was much different.


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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:05 PM
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It's hard to say, given both the nature of the Warp and the Chaos Gods. Technically, they have always existed in the Warp, even when it was calm and still. Even Slaanesh was said to exist long before he was 'born'. It's more when they fully came into being. I heard that Khorne was the first of the four to cross that threshold during Earth's Middle Ages. But that could be out of date fluff, or I could be mistaken.

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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:34 PM
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My views on the subject:

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According to the first edition background yes. Much more recent background however (Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th ed. Page 8) states that the chaos gods took billions of years to manifest properly. I can't see humanity making even a minor contribution to the coalescing of Khorne for example, we were fighting petty inter-regional wars on a single planet with crude weaponary whilst across the galaxy much larger and fiercer inter-planetary and even inter-sector wars were being fought with an amount of bloodshed that made humanity's wars look pathetic in comparison.

If Khorne did manifest during Terra's 'dark ages' then it is pure coincidence by our current understanding of the lore.
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I was aware of that passage under Doombreed, however it seems contradictory to other parts in the codex and even other modern lore. I'd also just like to throw in the timeless issue that the warp is timeless, therefore applying the word "young" to Khorne is a paradox.

There is also other pieces of lore which implies the chaos gods are much older, Codex: Necrons for example which states 60,000,000 years ago the warp was thrown into disarray as a result of the War in Heaven, implying in it's wording that this is when chaos began to rise.

Ultimately though I refuse to believe that the first three chaos gods manifested during the rise of mankind (unless it is a pure coincidence). Simply because this implies mankind played a significant role in their manifestation. You can't honestly say that humanity's petty conflicts across a single world brought about the rise of Khorne, when for 60,000,000 years across the entire galaxy (if not universe) inter-planetary through to plausable inter-galactic warfare was being waged. The War in Heaven itself is noted as a conflict the likes of which the universe has never seen again, this conflict in itself would have contributed significantly to the rise of Khorne rather than semi-intelligent monkeys bashing each other with sticks.

This can in turn be cross referenced with the rise of Slaanesh. A galaxy spanning empire with trillions of subjects who are one of the most (if not the most) psychically attuned species in the galaxy took thousands of years (possibly up to a million according to Codex: Eldar) to give rise to Slaanesh. I refuse to believe mankind gave rise to three chaos gods in the space of a couple thousand years (and that's being generous) even when civilisation had barely started on Terra and wars in general had few casualties and minor bloodshed compared to other conflicts raging in the universe.
How old is Khorne? Well assigning a date or age to a Chaos God results in a paradox. Khorne is eternal. But for simplicity's sake, Khorne is noted as being "young" (which causes problems in itself) when Doombreed ascended into the ranks of daemonhood. And going off the first edition background, Khorne's birth plausably occured at some point during the Age of Terra or before - give or take (potentially millennia if not more). But I strictly hold to the view that this is a mere coincidence and his (or any other Chaos Gods) birth is not a result of the rise of humanity.



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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:40 PM Thread Starter
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I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.

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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak The Unfaithful View Post
I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.
Given the eternal nature of chaos, it's unclear if the gods could interact with the material realm prior to their "birth".



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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karak The Unfaithful View Post
I know the chaos gods have always existed and never exsisted at the same time because of the time difference in the warp, but was there a point in the Galaxy's history when people said: "hold on a minate, theres a new chaos god around" if you get what i mean.
That was what I was going to say. Very well put Karak The Unfaithful. I guess by young they mean when talking about his age when he fully manifested himself. All the gods have always existed. So in that sense I now I understand that thats the reason none of them have the upper hand.

In our view and the broadest view of things as a mortal. One can understand why people would think Khorne is the "mightiest." Because for one, he was the first one fully born at the time. But we forget, that the other gods still did exist. And they have always had the same amount of power thus the reason for the Great Game.

I use to believe Khorne was born before the others because he was able to absorb more energy/souls and emotion and thus had an edge. But I don't believe that is so anymore. I believe that it was sort of (and forgive my french) a sort of orgasm into existance. The energy was so much that it finally created the god. Not that the moment in which they were born was the greatest moment the god had. But it was the biggest jump of excitement if you will before they existed.

It would explain why Khorne was the first and Slaanesh was the last. Khorne being very ill tempered of the gods was probably the most sensitive. Slaanesh being the more perverse and pleasure seeking, took so much more for it to finally give her that "orgasm" into existance.

Thats why Slaanesh was so strong and was able to defeat Khain and also compete with the three other Chaos Gods that were born much before it.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 03-01-11, 07:56 PM
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Yes, time is immaterial in the Immaterium so birth in a traditional sense is not possible, but I think the "birth" of a Chaos god refers to a cataclysmic outpouring or prolonged increase of emotion(s) that causes said emotion(s) to coalesce into a sentient being. Violently, of course.

In other words: Anger, bloodlust, honor, a sense of glory; these things were always present in the Warp, but before whatever caused Khorne to be "born", they were nothing more than raw feelings and desires spinning in that pea soup of madness. Something had to "spark" Khorne's existence (a mind-bendingly gigantic battle or perhaps a long, drawn-out war that slaughtered trillions; the emotions that created Slaanesh took centuries to grow in power enough to give birth to that particular god, so it doesn't have to be an "orgasm" as ck suggested). It's entirely possible that Khorne came first (in a mortal's sense of time) because, if you think about it, rage and hatred are very primal emotions and often come before pleasure, cunning (manipulation), or... eh... the love of boils and pus.

Damn, that's a good question. Not to de-rail the thread, but what emotions gave birth to Nurgle? He seems like more of a spawn of nature (decay and stagnation are natural processes) than the feelings of mortal beings.


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