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post #151 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 06:24 PM
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Hey, I'm knew to the board but have been reading Warhammer and 40k for over 10 years. I don't see why this is such an issue having the supreme grandmaster this dominant in the Realms of Chaos.Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat. The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.As to the Angron banishment requiring a company of Terminiators who didn't make it you should investigae who exactly was at that little party because it wasn't just Angron. The Skulltaker, a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters,World Eater chaos marines,and other demons.So yeah, with that kind of firepower I would say that the fact any of them made it out was impressive. If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden. He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.For all you fans of chaos why do you even care how powerful he is? Abaddon the Despoiler the Chosen Champion of Chaos.Then you have all the daemon primarchs still alive Angron,Mortarion,Magnus,Lorgar,Perturabo,Fulgrim,a nd (I know he's not a deamon prince)Omegon or Alpharius is still alive. That's not to mention champions like Lucius,Typhon,Fabius,or Kharn or the Greater deamons you all have. So relax, one guy going chuck norris in the warp hardly compares to the amount of fire power chaos has.

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post #152 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Hey, I'm knew to the board but have been reading Warhammer and 40k for over 10 years. I don't see why this is such an issue having the supreme grandmaster this dominant in the Realms of Chaos.Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat. The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.As to the Angron banishment requiring a company of Terminiators who didn't make it you should investigae who exactly was at that little party because it wasn't just Angron. The Skulltaker, a bodyguard of Bloodthirsters,World Eater chaos marines,and other demons.So yeah, with that kind of firepower I would say that the fact any of them made it out was impressive. If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden. He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.For all you fans of chaos why do you even care how powerful he is? Abaddon the Despoiler the Chosen Champion of Chaos.Then you have all the daemon primarchs still alive Angron,Mortarion,Magnus,Lorgar,Perturabo,Fulgrim,a nd (I know he's not a deamon prince)Omegon or Alpharius is still alive. That's not to mention champions like Lucius,Typhon,Fabius,or Kharn or the Greater deamons you all have. So relax, one guy going chuck norris in the warp hardly compares to the amount of fire power chaos has.
Many of us had an issue with this because its just so over the top that it is just silly. I know I want fond of it. Many of us here as well are old schoolers who came from the golden age 40k when we could still buy a rhino for 20 bucks and CSM could still kick everyone's ass. I never had a problem with the guy being inthe warp it was just all the insane feats they made him do.WIth Abbadon or any of the other char. they don't even accoplish feats of that stature

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post #153 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 09:04 PM
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Hector Rex banished the greatest Bloodthirster Khorne has Angraath in single combat.
The difference is the level of detail in which the combat was described. For starters, Hector Rex knew An'ggrath's true name. Second, he'd been practically geared to fight opponents such as him. So have the Grey Knights, but Arias, as an anointed force sword, bears particular mention. Thirdly...well, the difference in and of itself. The battle between Hector Rex and An'ggrath has 1-2 pages dedicated to it in IA 7, and the details show that it was still quite a struggle. Draigo's confrontation with Mortarion, by comparison, is but a footnote. My schtick on the Willing Suspension of Disbelief is already in this thread, and does not bear repeating.

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The 13th company have survived in the EOT for 10,000 and are still kicking a$$ present day in 40k.
And look how it has changed them. A good many of them have succumbed to the Curse of the Wulfen and they've had to scavenge equipment from traitor Astartes. They might be kicking ass, but they're at least taking some as well. I cannot say the same for Draigo.

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If Hector can take out Angraath one on one than I can buy the Mortarion story.If Alaric and cripple a black crusade on a world dedicated to Khorne in the EOT through wit and cleverness than maybe that's how the supreme grand master pulled off torching Nurgles Garden.
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Originally Posted by The Battle of Kornovin, 901.M41
Supreme Grand Master Geronitan is slain at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion. Grand Master Kaldor Draigo is elevated to the rank of Supreme Grand Master amidst the din of the battlefield and vows vengeance on Mortarion. Alone and unaided, Draigo smashes his way through Mortarion's bodyguard, strikes the Primarch to the ground and carves Geronitan's name on the Daemon's vile heart. Though Mortarion ultimately escapes, it is many long years before he can enter the mortal realm once more.
What little detail we have about the incident is spun in such a way as to make it seem as though it required little effort on his part. At least we know how exactly the fight between Hector Rex and An'ggrath went down.

Also, there's a difference between travelling the Eye of Terror and travelling the Warp. The Eye of Terror is merely where the Warp and realspace coalesce. The Warp itself is an entirely different dimension from realspace, with no laws of physics or reality or anything, a coalescense of pure psychic energy. No mortal may survive in the Warp without protection for this very reason alone.

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He may be in the warp from a curse of a greater deamon but he is one of the greatest Grey Knights so MAYBE the Emperor is giving him some help.
I don't believe the curse was any curse at all. Going by the description of Draigo, M'kar just grabbed him and threw him into the warp. I do not believe this is a direct result of M'kar's curse; would the Chaos Gods really have gone through with it if they had known how much trouble Draigo would cause in their realms? If he did in fact curse Draigo, he basically shot Chaos in the foot.

Homebrew stuff for your viewing pleasure:
The Stormhunters Fluff/Crunch - Updated 10/07/13
The Rust Legion Fluff - Updated 5/19/13
Firaeveus Carron Rules - Updated 12/9/10
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post #154 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-26-11, 11:03 PM
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On Draigo and the Chaos Gods:

"He's kicking our asses, let's trap him in our house!"

Yeah, I'm not sure what to ridicule first.

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post #155 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 12:05 AM
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I don't believe the curse was any curse at all. Going by the description of Draigo, M'kar just grabbed him and threw him into the warp. I do not believe this is a direct result of M'kar's curse; would the Chaos Gods really have gone through with it if they had known how much trouble Draigo would cause in their realms? If he did in fact curse Draigo, he basically shot Chaos in the foot.
It is entirely possible that it was the Daemon Prince M'Kar back-up plan all along. You see Draigo bust the faces of all the other gods, including a possible rival in the Lord of Change M'Kachen (and his city). It could be a bit of manipulating by M'Kar in an attempt to elevate his own position by weakening others.

Or the Dark Gods have a greater scheme taking place in the Mortal realm and do not want Draigo to interfere with it. By imprisoning him in the Warp you prevent him for leading the Grey Knights versus a grand scheme of destruction against the Imperium.

DAEMONHUNTERS/GREY KNIGHTS: W-33/L-3/D-3

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post #156 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 12:52 AM
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Wait, you're saying that chaos champions don't accomplish feats in the materium compared to what Draigo has done in the ether? Okay Draigo is ONE guy who yeah has done some ridiculously bad ass stuff to the chaos gods and the realm.The forces of chaos (not including the 13 black crusades by Abbaddon) have been running trains on the imperium for centuries. Entire sectors subjugated and enslaved to the Gods.Worlds destroyed to the point where sometimes they are not recoverable. In case you forgot,Abbaddon also was indirectly responsible for getting rid of one of the most powerful Eldar Eldrad Ulthran.If he never launched that black crusade,the talismans would have never been an issue,and Slaanesh wouldn't be playing pin the tail on the Eldrad in his domain. One guy wreaking havoc in the realm of Chaos doesn't even compare to what the forces of Chaso have accomplished in Imperial Space over the centuries.Next to him who does the imperium really have that could challenge the Despoiler one on one? If a situation like the Siege of Terra occured on a planet and the forces of the Emperor had a shot at taking down Abbaddon or one of the Chaos Primarchs who would they send? One on one? That's right,unlike the siege of terra we don't have any Emperor or Primarchs who could actually best any of the top guys Chaos has. The only guy I see being able to handle Abbaddon one on one would be the Night Bringer at full power and I'm sure he'd be dying to help out the Imperium.We don't have anyone of ridiculous power levels like Chaos does so no,you don't have to have stories of Abbaddon doing ridiculous things like Draigo because he's already that powerful. Mortarion,Perturabo,Angron, or any of the Daemon Princes are ridiculously powerful. We've got this guy and maybe the Sanguinor (who only really comes when everyone is pretty much on their way to the grave) as other worldly powers from the warp.If you want to talk fair and someone being overpowered it makes absolutely no sense at all the imperium is still standing. With the forces of Chaos and the traitors with all the forces they can bring to bear,the tyranids,Necron/C'Tan,and don't forget the old school threat of the Orks/Eldar/Dark Eldar/and now the Tau it's a wonder it's still around. It makes sense that their should be some kinda bad ass somewhere holding shit back from spiling over.
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post #157 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Deadeye776 View Post
Wait, you're saying that chaos champions don't accomplish feats in the materium compared to what Draigo has done in the ether? Okay Draigo is ONE guy who yeah has done some ridiculously bad ass stuff to the chaos gods and the realm.The forces of chaos (not including the 13 black crusades by Abbaddon) have been running trains on the imperium for centuries. Entire sectors subjugated and enslaved to the Gods.Worlds destroyed to the point where sometimes they are not recoverable. In case you forgot,Abbaddon also was indirectly responsible for getting rid of one of the most powerful Eldar Eldrad Ulthran.If he never launched that black crusade,the talismans would have never been an issue,and Slaanesh wouldn't be playing pin the tail on the Eldrad in his domain. One guy wreaking havoc in the realm of Chaos doesn't even compare to what the forces of Chaso have accomplished in Imperial Space over the centuries.Next to him who does the imperium really have that could challenge the Despoiler one on one? If a situation like the Siege of Terra occured on a planet and the forces of the Emperor had a shot at taking down Abbaddon or one of the Chaos Primarchs who would they send? One on one? That's right,unlike the siege of terra we don't have any Emperor or Primarchs who could actually best any of the top guys Chaos has. The only guy I see being able to handle Abbaddon one on one would be the Night Bringer at full power and I'm sure he'd be dying to help out the Imperium.We don't have anyone of ridiculous power levels like Chaos does so no,you don't have to have stories of Abbaddon doing ridiculous things like Draigo because he's already that powerful. Mortarion,Perturabo,Angron, or any of the Daemon Princes are ridiculously powerful. We've got this guy and maybe the Sanguinor (who only really comes when everyone is pretty much on their way to the grave) as other worldly powers from the warp.If you want to talk fair and someone being overpowered it makes absolutely no sense at all the imperium is still standing. With the forces of Chaos and the traitors with all the forces they can bring to bear,the tyranids,Necron/C'Tan,and don't forget the old school threat of the Orks/Eldar/Dark Eldar/and now the Tau it's a wonder it's still around. It makes sense that their should be some kinda bad ass somewhere holding shit back from spiling over.
I'm not talking fair. I'm talking believable. Draigo and all of Matt Ward's new ICs could have a hundred achievements under their belt, a thousand battle honors, etc, but his killing stuff in the Warp - which for reasons previously mentioned should not be possible by any mortal - is simply ridiculous, for the same reason that Calgar being the "spiritual liege" of all Space Marines is ridiculous (admittedly, that comes from a WD interview from Matt Ward, not from the Codex), or that the Blood Angels allying with the 'crons and then leaving them be after the fight against the Tyranids is over is ridiculous, for either side. It breaks my Willing Suspension of Disbelief by attempting to make them seem uber-awesome; literally, I do not believe that Calgar is the spiritual liege of all Space Marines, for example. And for the record, I am pro-Imperium.

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It is entirely possible that it was the Daemon Prince M'Kar back-up plan all along. You see Draigo bust the faces of all the other gods, including a possible rival in the Lord of Change M'Kachen (and his city). It could be a bit of manipulating by M'Kar in an attempt to elevate his own position by weakening others.

Or the Dark Gods have a greater scheme taking place in the Mortal realm and do not want Draigo to interfere with it. By imprisoning him in the Warp you prevent him for leading the Grey Knights versus a grand scheme of destruction against the Imperium.
Either is possible, but I don't know if it's within the power of the Chaos Gods to keep Draigo...well, existant, or intact. The Warp is just an entirely different dimension from realspace; it was before the Chaos Gods and it is now.

Even so - and I've said so earlier in the thread - it isn't just the fluff in itself that gets me riled up, but how it is spun. Even for being their own Codex, Matt Ward tends to overhype those armies he's given to write for. And the folks at GW expect me as a reader to just swallow that up?

Homebrew stuff for your viewing pleasure:
The Stormhunters Fluff/Crunch - Updated 10/07/13
The Rust Legion Fluff - Updated 5/19/13
Firaeveus Carron Rules - Updated 12/9/10
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post #158 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 04:37 AM
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It is what it is GW would not of suppported it if it was not the case. Far fetched yes but CANON it remains hahahaha. Blood angels and necron allies thats disgusting pure and simple.
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post #159 of 159 (permalink) Old 05-27-11, 04:54 AM
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Jesus Christ people, learn how to use the enter key. New idea = new paragraph.

As for the current topic; Wards fluff is too fanboy-ish for my liking. I like balanced characters, not characters who are incorruptible and stomp around tea-bagging the gods on their own turf.

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