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post #101 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-22-11, 04:58 PM
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Well look what happens when a ship's geller field fails whilst travelling through the warp... It's doesn't exactly result in "order" being introduced into the "chaos".
True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?

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Regardless of how he ended up in the warp, his exploits seem more impressive than anything we know even the Emperor himself has done.
We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.
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post #102 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-22-11, 07:23 PM
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Man, sometimes I get too serious.


I think the other poster was talking about the book following "Dead Sky Black Sun". Yeah, I can see how Uriel might be forced into an uncomfortable alliance--how he might even pity the mutant victims of the Iron Warriors, since they're not technically mutants, but the products of a horrid, involuntary, pseudo-Astartes creation process.

BUT, once off that planet, Uriel's mercy should have been a bolter round to the head. And even if he WAS somehow constrained by his word to the mutants, the Grey Knights should have had no qualms about putting them down.

IMHO, of course.
Yeah you have a point. Though when uriel landeed on the planet he wound up at he first assumed that it was uninhabited. So he saw no issue with the unfleshed living there until he realized that they were not alone there. I guess given the nature of uriel's char. he doesn't exactly see the codex as something to follow word for word but more of a refrence and therfore has his own sense of honor and morals he follows.

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post #103 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-22-11, 11:23 PM
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True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?
If M'kar meant to curse Draigo to walk the warp for ten millennia, then he sure wasn't helping his own cause, considering all the stuff he did while trapped. From the looks of it, M'kar just grasped him by the throat and threw him in the collapsing warp rift, too. I don't see any measure of protection that he had barring his armor, his psychic prowess, and his faith, all of which could conceivably keep him alive only for so long.

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We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.
But we do know that, prior to and during the Great Crusade up to the end of the Horus Heresy, the Emperor was almost entirely material world-bound. Some old Rogue Trader fluff states that he lived secretly amongst humanity, building up his psychic might until the time came to reveal himself (the validity of this fluff now that 40k has hit 5E is unknown to me). He conducted the creation of the Primarchs on Luna where they were scattered by the Chaos Gods. He would go on to win the Unification Wars and begin the Great Crusade, and the rest is history.

True, we don't know just what the Emperor did in the warp. But even if he turned out to slay 50 quintillion daemons just to make Draigo believable, that would still do much to shatter my willing suspension of disbelief. I can't speak for the WSoD threshold of others, however.

For lack of a better term...it's like making a Bluff check in D&D. The more incredulous the story, the higher the DC gets and the harder it becomes to succeed, natural 20s notwithstanding.

Homebrew stuff for your viewing pleasure:
The Stormhunters Fluff/Crunch - Updated 10/07/13
The Rust Legion Fluff - Updated 5/19/13
Firaeveus Carron Rules - Updated 12/9/10

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post #104 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 06:49 AM
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I think the other poster was talking about the book following "Dead Sky Black Sun". Yeah, I can see how Uriel might be forced into an uncomfortable alliance--how he might even pity the mutant victims of the Iron Warriors, since they're not technically mutants, but the products of a horrid, involuntary, pseudo-Astartes creation process.

BUT, once off that planet, Uriel's mercy should have been a bolter round to the head. And even if he WAS somehow constrained by his word to the mutants, the Grey Knights should have had no qualms about putting them down.

IMHO, of course.
Bingo, this was my thought exactly!

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Yeah you have a point. Though when uriel landeed on the planet he wound up at he first assumed that it was uninhabited. So he saw no issue with the unfleshed living there until he realized that they were not alone there. I guess given the nature of uriel's char. he doesn't exactly see the codex as something to follow word for word but more of a refrence and therfore has his own sense of honor and morals he follows.
Don`t misunderstand me, I enjoyed the books. Though I don`t necessarily agree with the sense of it at least McNeill attempts to rationalise it.

What we`ve seen from Matt Ward just looks plain and simple, unprofessional.

And on the necron BA thing, let me clarify; I have no qualms about necrons allying with another race to fight a far deadlier enemy. What bothered me was how it ended. Why didn`t they resume the war? Battleworn is not a just explanation for unliving machines imo, it needs a bit of expansion. Did the necrons lose too many of their monoliths? Did the Blood Angels have the numerical superiority? Were the necrons two models from phase out?

It`s not the fluff Matt writes persay, but he really needs to justify some of it better. A little less fanboyism wouldn`t hurt either...


Nonsense is our Salvation

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post #105 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 05:03 PM
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Bingo, this was my thought exactly!



Don`t misunderstand me, I enjoyed the books. Though I don`t necessarily agree with the sense of it at least McNeill attempts to rationalise it.

What we`ve seen from Matt Ward just looks plain and simple, unprofessional.

And on the necron BA thing, let me clarify; I have no qualms about necrons allying with another race to fight a far deadlier enemy. What bothered me was how it ended. Why didn`t they resume the war? Battleworn is not a just explanation for unliving machines imo, it needs a bit of expansion. Did the necrons lose too many of their monoliths? Did the Blood Angels have the numerical superiority? Were the necrons two models from phase out?

It`s not the fluff Matt writes persay, but he really needs to justify some of it better. A little less fanboyism wouldn`t hurt either...
Well the way i see it with the necrons was that if u read the section about morale tests it says they arne't afraid but they do know when it is time to fall back.

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post #106 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 06:35 PM
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The GK fluff saysDraigo carved his predecessors name into Mortarion's heart- what it doesn't say is how many Grey Knights it took to bring down the Daemon Primarch, it certainly doesn't say that Draigo did it alone.

We know that Mortals can walk the realm of Chaos without using a Geller field, it says as much in the Chaos Daemon Codex with mortal champions having to quest across Khorne's realm in order to secure themselves a Juggernaught or Slaanesh's realm to gain a Seeker etc. Chaos Space Marines, especially the Word Bearers, don't always sail the empyrean with their Geller fields activated either.
And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story.
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post #107 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 07:06 PM
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And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story.
what story is that from

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post #108 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Wusword77 View Post
True, but that ship is there through "unnatural" means, it can only survive in the warp due to protection from it's geller field. Draigo was cursed (or blessed) with the ability to wander the warp like he belongs there as opposed to the material realm. That has never happened in the fluff before (at least to my knowledge) so how do we know what will happen?
So your suggesting M'kar (or at least his curse) is sustaining Draigo's presence in the warp? Almost certainly it seems with what information we currently have, but that still doesn't justify how he achieved what he apparently has within the warp.

The warp and chaos are indivisible. A realm where reality is a meaningless concept. It baffles me how a mortal (given a powerful daemon-hunter, but still no more than a mere mortal) has been able to enter this realm and achieve what he has. Merely 'gazing' into the warp is said to result in an instant and terrifying death for the vast majority, with even fewer able to maintain any semblance of their personal consciousness/sanity within it's boundaries. But to then proceed to crusade around slaying/defeating some of the most powerful daemons (taking into account they are much more powerful within their own realm, where reality is not limiting them) around and even damaging a chaos god (by burning the Garden of Nurgle - remembering that a chaos god is his realm) is more than absurd.

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We know almost nothing of what the Emperor has done in the warp, making that a weak argument. Hell we know more of what Magnus has done in the warp then we do the Emperor.
Oh, I accept that. But you get my point. Draigo's exploits within the warp seem ridiculous. I don't need to re-read this thread so see that most people agree.

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And also a little girl managed to get into Tzeentch maze. Tru story.
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what story is that from
Codex: Chaos Daemons, Page 12.

But it should be noted that it almost certainly wasn't merely a little girl. The exact wording is:

"Legends tell that only one challenger, clad in the guise of a young girl with a little black dog, managed to make her way through all of the gates. When Tzeentch questioned him about this failure, the Guardian accused her of cheating."

It is implied this individual achieved 'infinite knowledge', but it is unclear what/who said individual was/is, or what consequences her passage through the nine gates has had/will have.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

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post #109 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-23-11, 11:13 PM
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The warp and chaos are indivisible. A realm where reality is a meaningless concept. It baffles me how a mortal (given a powerful daemon-hunter, but still no more than a mere mortal) has been able to enter this realm and achieve what he has. Merely 'gazing' into the warp is said to result in an instant and terrifying death for the vast majority, with even fewer able to maintain any semblance of their personal consciousness/sanity within it's boundaries. But to then proceed to crusade around slaying/defeating some of the most powerful daemons (taking into account they are much more powerful within their own realm, where reality is not limiting them) around and even damaging a chaos god (by burning the Garden of Nurgle - remembering that a chaos god is his realm) is more than absurd.
You are aware that you argue that reality is meaningless in the warp, then wonder how someone can do some extraordinary. We have no idea what happened to Draigo, or why he is demon like. The mere mixing of the mortal with a demon int he unique way that is going on with Draigo, combined with being in the warp which has nothing to do with reality, could make him the most powerful being in existence for all we know. You are acting like he bested these demons in any way that we could conceive, when it's all metaphysical and could be a contest of wills, and him being supported in the Warp by whatever, combined with being the only being not under the thrall of a Chaos God in the warp, could make his will MUCH more powerful that the average demon.

Just some ideas.
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post #110 of 159 (permalink) Old 02-24-11, 01:28 AM
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You are aware that you argue that reality is meaningless in the warp, then wonder how someone can do some extraordinary. We have no idea what happened to Draigo, or why he is demon like. The mere mixing of the mortal with a demon int he unique way that is going on with Draigo, combined with being in the warp which has nothing to do with reality, could make him the most powerful being in existence for all we know. You are acting like he bested these demons in any way that we could conceive, when it's all metaphysical and could be a contest of wills, and him being supported in the Warp by whatever, combined with being the only being not under the thrall of a Chaos God in the warp, could make his will MUCH more powerful that the average demon.

Just some ideas.
I don't think so. If mortals can become that powerful just by entering the warp unprotected, then humanity would've dealt with the threat of Chaos long ago. That clearly isn't the case when gellar fields fail and mortals are ripped apart (or in Ghazghkull's case, killed some of 'is boyz) or when teleporters fail and Terminators get lost in the warp - no matter the means of entry, they don't survive for long. Draigo, powerful as he is, has no excuse for being an exception to the rule.

Homebrew stuff for your viewing pleasure:
The Stormhunters Fluff/Crunch - Updated 10/07/13
The Rust Legion Fluff - Updated 5/19/13
Firaeveus Carron Rules - Updated 12/9/10
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