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post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
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Default Each Legion has a back up (purpose)

Ive noticed after the most recent book (heretic) that it alludes each legion/primarch, was made with a specific purpose for the Imperium.

So I started to think what each legions purpose was, I also noticed the emperor being the pragmatic individual he was, likely created a back up legion for every category, since he had doubts all the legions would stay loyal, thus his executioners.

Note: This is the purpose of each legion, not the purpose of the primarch per say.

Salamanders/Death Guard = Heavy Foot infantry

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors = Garrisoning/fortification/Siege

Blood Angels/World Eaters = Shock Troopers

Raven Guard/Alpha Legion = Covert Ops/Intelligence Agency

Ultramarines/Word Bearers = Stand Alone Empires (its stated a legion was created with the sole purpose to watch the distant rim of the galaxy as its own stand alone entity, ala the ultramarines and the galactic east their empire. I also believe the word bearers were suppose to do similar, due to how they raised worlds, they made them extremely stable and loyal, just like the UM worlds except they went at too slow a pace).

Space Wolves/Night Lords = Executioners

White Scars/Lunar Wolves = Blitzkrieg, Spearheaded Assault

Sanctioned Legion (1 of the missing, I believe they befell a similar fate as the TT due to how the emperor likely was making two legions per purpose, and sorcery was one of the biggest fears of all the primarchs. Also how russ alludes to how he doesnt want to do Magnus what he did to the others, possibly they too were a heavy psyker legion?)/Thousand Sons = Sorcerers of the Emperor

Iron Hands/? = Technology emphasis of the Emperor, to control and or replace the Adeptus Mechanicus

Dark Angels = FBI of the imperium, created to watch and investigate internal affairs.

Emperor's Children = absolute elite troops above all other legions, but smallest in quantity. Used for most dire, risky missions where no others can complete.

So what do you all think? I'm still modifying it, but these are my current thoughts so far.

Last edited by Jerushee; 12-22-10 at 04:43 AM.
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post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 03:01 AM
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The Emperor's Children were good solid troops akin to the Ultra's. Look what they did to the Laer, a race of beings that were deemed too difficult to subjugate/destroy. The Emperor's Children whipped them in a month.

The Dark Angels are good garrison troops, but could also be in the same category as the Raven Guard/ Alpha, skilled in intelligence work, hunting down the Fallen, wherever they can find them.

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post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 04:38 AM Thread Starter
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Hmm perhaps the dark angels purpose was to act as the FBI of the imperium, internal investigations, while the alpha/rave were the cia as the intel of external affairs.

As for the EC I perhaps they were for elite troops, small in number, but used for missions where the absolute best quality, but not neccesarily quantity was needed.

I wouldn't place EC in same category as UM and WB because the book says "and one to watch the distant rim". The EC didn't have thenumbers to set up an empire on the distant rim and manage it ever constantly. I see the UM and the WB doing this due to them being the largest legions, and they raise the most stable, loyal, post war worlds.
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post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 06:29 AM
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Hmmm, never thought of it in these terms. Pretty interesting - what did you mean when you said "...since he had doubts all the legions would stay loyal, thus his executioners"? Every loyalist has been paired with a traitor - do you think he knew that one Chapter in each category would turn traitor, or do you think that the GW staff did that to even up each side - for instance, having a Chapter that is stealth like the Alpha Legion on the traitor side and the Raven Guard on the imperial side for purposes of balance.

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post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 07:27 AM Thread Starter
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In the book first heretic, it is stated that the emperor created each primarch and legion for a specific purpose. It names some of them, such as
To be the heir
To watch the distant perimeter
To manager the intelligences
To safeguard the hearth
To garrison the worlds
To be his execution - confirmed as russ and the space wolves

However it also alludes to the fact that he purposely made executioner primarchs/legions, for the sole purpose of taking down other primarchs/legions...which makes one wonder if he knew or suspected not all would stay loyal
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post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 08:07 AM
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Oh gotcha, must have skimmed over some of that part lol, I read the first 3 descriptions of the Primarchs dropping in their pods, then skipped to the action haha.

Of topic, but the Iron Hands are in need of some serious love when it comes to fluff - they seem pretty damn cool, but haven't been shown much attention.

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post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 01:23 PM
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Given the list you mentioned, I don't know that intelligence gathering suits the Dark Angels. From what we've seen of their campaigns ("Call of the Lion", "Descent of Angels", "Fallen Angels") they seem to be in the frontier/outward reaches of the Imperium. They are almost always described bringing worlds to compliance (DoA), seeking out new outposts of Humanity (CotL), etc.

It's not until "Fallen Angels" that we see the Legio I turning back toward the established Imperium, and even then this is after the Heresy has already erupted and the Lion is simply acting on his own natural genius. The information he acted on was available to every other Primarch--he was simply the one bright enough to apply it properly to the conflict at hand.
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post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Given the list you mentioned, I don't know that intelligence gathering suits the Dark Angels. From what we've seen of their campaigns ("Call of the Lion", "Descent of Angels", "Fallen Angels") they seem to be in the frontier/outward reaches of the Imperium. They are almost always described bringing worlds to compliance (DoA), seeking out new outposts of Humanity (CotL), etc.

It's not until "Fallen Angels" that we see the Legio I turning back toward the established Imperium, and even then this is after the Heresy has already erupted and the Lion is simply acting on his own natural genius. The information he acted on was available to every other Primarch--he was simply the one bright enough to apply it properly to the conflict at hand.
True, also the Lion on an individual level wasn't perceptive enough to be head of an intelligience network. He doesn't get people.

The DA have evolved into a mixed bunch they have specialist heavy infantry in the Deathwing aswell as a dedicated fast attack cadre the Ravenwing. So to be honest I have no idea what their intended purpose might have been at the founding. Perhaps just a general, flexible fighting force. A jack of all trades if you like.
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post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 02:24 PM
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I disagree with that first line on principle. What's more likely? That the Lion doesn't get people? Or that Nemiel just doesn't get a Primarch? That Lion El'Jonson somehow managed to get through five decades of Great Crusade on sheer luck overcoming a massive social handicap, or that Nemiel just follows the already shown trend of consciously and/or subconsciously propping his master on such a pedestal that he is shocked to discover he isn't perfect?

That entire exchange--the Primarch, the Governor, Archoi, Nemiel--was prefaced by the Lion spelling out for Nemiel that Horus could conceivably have agents anywhere. So it's not as if his quandary was so cosmic. Furthermore, the Lion asked for Nemiel's opinion after he had already made his decision. It's not as if he was looking to Nemiel to help him make up his mind.

If we're going to use this as an example for the Lion being socially handicapped, then Rogal Dorn must be a colossal moron and/or an uncontrollably violent individual following his encounter with Nathaniel Garro. Like two renegade Astartes would really cook up a story about Horus rebelling and then try to sell it to another Primarch. What exactly did Rogal Dorn think their grand plot entailed? That he simply WASN'T going to check the facts and would instead be forced to attack Horus w/out provocation?

Ultimately, the Dark Angels seem to have been a shock invasion force. Their demonstrated tactics place emphasis on precise strikes at key locations--whether during fleet actions or planetary landings.

For myself, I also don't like terms like "Jack of All Trades". If you look at an infantry battalion, they're not "well versed in a number of vocations". They can't, for instance, jump into a helicopter or a tank as needed, and fly/drive to their objective. They can't run up to a howitzer and start laying down artillery barrages kilometers away. Their infantrymen are just that: infantrymen.

A unit is defined by its mission statement, as determined by the sum of its equipment. With that sum of equipment might come limitations. The US 82nd Airborne Division or the British Paras, for example, who simply CAN'T wage armored warfare like a US Infantry Division--which also includes armored units. On the other hand, a US Infantry Division isn't capable of parachuting in any part of the world in less than (theoretically) 24 hours.

With that in mind, no Legion* shown thus far lacks armor, gunships, artillery, spaceships, etc. Certain Legions might favor certain tactics or modes of engagement, but none of them are limited to certain sectors of war on account of differing equipment. Thus, there is no "Jack of All Trades" Legion. The Alpha Legion are great covert operatives because that's Alpharius' philosophical bent. But unless Alpharius just scrapped all his armour, he can still wage armored warfare. Mind you, he might lean more toward Rommel's playbook than Monty's (the Desert Fox famously used feints, misdirection, and allied units as bait to distract from his true master-stroke attack), but that's another matter altogether.

In conclusion, so as not to sound like a complete prick... cheers, good words, and don't take anything I said above too seriously. :D

P.

* Though in Legion the Legio XX keeps pretty much all its assets in reserve while the Imperial Army does most of the conventional fighting.

Last edited by Phoebus; 12-22-10 at 02:33 PM.
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post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 12-22-10, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
I disagree with that first line on principle. What's more likely? That the Lion doesn't get people? Or that Nemiel just doesn't get a Primarch? That Lion El'Jonson somehow managed to get through five decades of Great Crusade on sheer luck overcoming a massive social handicap, or that Nemiel just follows the already shown trend of consciously and/or subconsciously propping his master on such a pedestal that he is shocked to discover he isn't perfect?

That entire exchange--the Primarch, the Governor, Archoi, Nemiel--was prefaced by the Lion spelling out for Nemiel that Horus could conceivably have agents anywhere. So it's not as if his quandary was so cosmic. Furthermore, the Lion asked for Nemiel's opinion after he had already made his decision. It's not as if he was looking to Nemiel to help him make up his mind.

If we're going to use this as an example for the Lion being socially handicapped, then Rogal Dorn must be a colossal moron and/or an uncontrollably violent individual following his encounter with Nathaniel Garro. Like two renegade Astartes would really cook up a story about Horus rebelling and then try to sell it to another Primarch. What exactly did Rogal Dorn think their grand plot entailed? That he simply WASN'T going to check the facts and would instead be forced to attack Horus w/out provocation?
That wasn't my sole basis for him being "socially handicapped" (your words by the way not mine ). There's also his questionable appoingtment of Cypher, his handling of Luther, and pretty much all the criticisms that were laid at his feet by Astelan in Angels of Darkness. If you take all of these at face value As it Stands I think he's not too good a judge of charachter. Admittedly you may be correct about the conversation with Nemiel but we can agree to disagree there, again I choose to go with my first impression here with the other supporting evidence taken into account.

Never thought I'd find myself defending Dorn but in that instance he had been greeted by two Astartes claiming that his brother had done the inconceivable, personally I think the idea of Horus and a few legions turning traitor is alot less likely than two Astartes. Dorn acted correctly in this instance, he pulled his blow and may or may not have actually decapitated Garro, we'll never know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Ultimately, the Dark Angels seem to have been a shock invasion force. Their demonstrated tactics place emphasis on precise strikes at key locations--whether during fleet actions or planetary landings.

For myself, I also don't like terms like "Jack of All Trades". If you look at an infantry battalion, they're not "well versed in a number of vocations". They can't, for instance, jump into a helicopter or a tank as needed, and fly/drive to their objective. They can't run up to a howitzer and start laying down artillery barrages kilometers away. Their infantrymen are just that: infantrymen.

A unit is defined by its mission statement, as determined by the sum of its equipment. With that sum of equipment might come limitations. The US 82nd Airborne Division or the British Paras, for example, who simply CAN'T wage armored warfare like a US Infantry Division--which also includes armored units. On the other hand, a US Infantry Division isn't capable of parachuting in any part of the world in less than (theoretically) 24 hours.

With that in mind, no Legion* shown thus far lacks armor, gunships, artillery, spaceships, etc. Certain Legions might favor certain tactics or modes of engagement, but none of them are limited to certain sectors of war on account of differing equipment. Thus, there is no "Jack of All Trades" Legion. The Alpha Legion are great covert operatives because that's Alpharius' philosophical bent. But unless Alpharius just scrapped all his armour, he can still wage armored warfare. Mind you, he might lean more toward Rommel's playbook than Monty's (the Desert Fox famously used feints, misdirection, and allied units as bait to distract from his true master-stroke attack), but that's another matter altogether.
Somewhere in there you may have contradicted yourself....

My take on Jack of all trades, which admittedly may have been an over simplification in my initial post, is a unit that can probably do everything fairly well. Astartes in General conform here, you want artillery? They have whirlwinds. You want fast attack? They have bikes and landspeeders. You want paratroopers? They have Jump packs. You want a navy? They have strike cruisers. You want an engineer corp? They have tech marines. You want a medical corp? They have apothacaries.

So what I was getting at is that the DA, by not openly advancing down the garrisoning/siege path or specialising in covert ops etc. It leaves them as simply Astartes which as I've pointed out are great at everything.

Incidently I mean no disrespect to the DA here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
In conclusion, so as not to sound like a complete prick... cheers, good words, and don't take anything I said above too seriously. :D

P.
No worries man, it's christmas.
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