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post #21 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 07:36 PM
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I don't think they would because they all would have fallen at different times and for different reasons imo. The Night Lords were already on the way out before the Heresy kicked off, and they weren't all jumping in to help them then. The Thousand Sons would have fallen against their own choice. The World Eaters would have been taken out before they rebelled i think. And the Iron Warriors, well they would have taken quite some time i think, or would have been sanctioned or called to account for their actions after Olympia.
The Night Lords, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were all on their way out when the Heresy started. The only reason they weren't called to account for the various things they'd done wrong was because they're was a bigger fish to fry.

The Night Lords were pretty much rogue after Night Haunters attack on Dorn and the destruction of Nostromo.
The Thousand Son were being sanctioned and Tzeetch would likely have had them team up with the other some how.
The World Eaters were going to be called to account for that massacre the Ultramarines witnessed (don't remember the name). Where it specifically states that the Heresy broke out before that sanctioning could come.
The Iron Warriors massacre of Olympia would likely have seen them outed. If not I think one of the others could have persuaded Perturabo to join them (I went it why on another thread).

Others who might have joined them included Fulgrim (under Slaaneshs influence), Lorgar (he was already the gods pawn), Mortarion (still don't really know what was going through his head), Alpharius (again, don't know what his thought process was), the Lion (it's certainly a possibility, he was arrogant, paranoid and distant and the gods are noted to have taken an interest in him). So really all that changes is that it becomes the Lionite Heresy and possibly succeeds (although it doesn't sound as cool).

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post #22 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 07:39 PM
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I think the chaos gods arent that bothered whether the demon primarchs do anything at all, I think that Lorgar and Magnus were more strategically important to the imperium than people think. I would say that chaos wanted them out of the way. As if to say as long as they are not working for the Imperium and are happy on some planet in the EoT, then they are doing their bit for chaos.
Its my opinion that Magnus and Lorgar represented something that could have lead mankind to victory over chaos and the chaos gods needed them out of the way. Stategically they are more like prisoners of war than slaves of chaos.

Remember that in 40k Psychic power is much more tolerated and Religious faith is considered essential to combating chaos, yet in 30k they were allowed to be ostracised from Imperial society.

Lorgar and Magnus and to a lesser extent Fulgrim and Manus are the Primarchs who are capable of improving the Imperium in ways beyond killing people, Its seems coincidental that they are taken out of the equation very early on.
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post #23 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 07:42 PM
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Personally, I would have thought that the Heresy would happen, but instead it wasn't Chaos that causes it, and simply the Primarchs up bringing and differences.

Of course, the sides would be different though, and the side without the Emperor (if there is one) would most probably lose.

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post #24 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 07:57 PM
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The Night Lords, Thousand Sons, World Eaters and Iron Warriors were all on their way out when the Heresy started. The only reason they weren't called to account for the various things they'd done wrong was because they're was a bigger fish to fry.

The Night Lords were pretty much rogue after Night Haunters attack on Dorn and the destruction of Nostromo.
The Thousand Son were being sanctioned and Tzeetch would likely have had them team up with the other some how.
The World Eaters were going to be called to account for that massacre the Ultramarines witnessed (don't remember the name). Where it specifically states that the Heresy broke out before that sanctioning could come.
The Iron Warriors massacre of Olympia would likely have seen them outed. If not I think one of the others could have persuaded Perturabo to join them (I went it why on another thread).

Others who might have joined them included Fulgrim (under Slaaneshs influence), Lorgar (he was already the gods pawn), Mortarion (still don't really know what was going through his head), Alpharius (again, don't know what his thought process was), the Lion (it's certainly a possibility, he was arrogant, paranoid and distant and the gods are noted to have taken an interest in him). So really all that changes is that it becomes the Lionite Heresy and possibly succeeds (although it doesn't sound as cool).
Yes but they were all on there way out for different reasons, none of them because they wanted to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium. They have nothing to unite them without Horus and his ambition and objectives, which is why Horus was so critical for the Heresy to happen. He was needed to bring them all together. Without the heresy happening, which is what this thread is based on, there would be no reason for the Alpha Legion to help the traitors, I don't know why the Lion would suddenly join the traitors when he didn't in the proper Heresy, and even if you want to believe he was a fence sitter(which i don't) he's not going to join the team which is obviously going to lose.

Again, without Horus, there is no combined Heresy. He was essential to it happening, as he needed to unite them all as i said before.
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post #25 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 09:13 PM
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I don't believe any of the Primarchs were on the way out as such, after hearing of the Unification wars on Terra and the great crusade, it seemed the Emperor was always comfortable with hard line killer legions.

Then something changed, he decided they weren't fashionable anymore. A bit like the end of the cold war when cia black ops arent needed any more and are denied and killed off and covered up. He started listening to complaints from someone and should have told them to piss off, but he didnt he started sanctioning his legions. Politics I guess, he started selling out his own sons so he wouldnt look unpopular in the press - common story.
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post #26 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 09:42 PM
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Yes but they were all on there way out for different reasons, none of them because they wanted to kill the Emperor and destroy the Imperium. They have nothing to unite them without Horus and his ambition and objectives, which is why Horus was so critical for the Heresy to happen. He was needed to bring them all together. Without the heresy happening, which is what this thread is based on, there would be no reason for the Alpha Legion to help the traitors, I don't know why the Lion would suddenly join the traitors when he didn't in the proper Heresy, and even if you want to believe he was a fence sitter(which i don't) he's not going to join the team which is obviously going to lose.

Again, without Horus, there is no combined Heresy. He was essential to it happening, as he needed to unite them all as i said before.
It's debatable whether or not Perturabo, Mortarion and Angron wanted to kill the Emperor, they each had reasons to. And the Night Haunter almost certainly wanted to destroy the Imperium, he had already turned his back on it. Is their survival not reason enough to unify them? Each of these primarchs is a ruthless pragmatist, each would be (and ultimately was) willing to join with people who didn't really agree with them because it served their individual goals.

The Alpha Legions motivations have never really been explained and so we cannot say with any certainty that they would not have joined without Horus. Perhaps Lion didn't join the proper Heresy because it was headed by Horus? Perhaps he wanted to lead it himself? He may believed he was the better general and decided to prove it by siding against Horus. Similar to Perturabo's motivation for joining the team (though completely opposite in its results). He may have beleived that with him to lead it, this new Heresy wouldn't have failed.

In the end I don't believe Horus was very necessary for the Heresy. He was the pawn of others from the get-go. He was the face that ultimately became the center but he was not the master/designer of the Heresy.

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post #27 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 09:51 PM
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It's debatable whether or not Perturabo, Mortarion and Angron wanted to kill the Emperor, they each had reasons to. And the Night Haunter almost certainly wanted to destroy the Imperium, he had already turned his back on it. Is their survival not reason enough to unify them? Each of these primarchs is a ruthless pragmatist, each would be (and ultimately was) willing to join with people who didn't really agree with them because it served their individual goals.

The Alpha Legions motivations have never really been explained and so we cannot say with any certainty that they would not have joined without Horus. Perhaps Lion didn't join the proper Heresy because it was headed by Horus? Perhaps he wanted to lead it himself? He may believed he was the better general and decided to prove it by siding against Horus. Similar to Perturabo's motivation for joining the team (though completely opposite in its results). He may have beleived that with him to lead it, this new Heresy wouldn't have failed.

In the end I don't believe Horus was very necessary for the Heresy. He was the pawn of others from the get-go. He was the face that ultimately became the center but he was not the master/designer of the Heresy.
The Lion is loyal, he has proved this enough, all we have is one book with a traitor marine claiming he is not. Every other shred of evidence points to the Lion being a loyalist through and through and utterly loyal to the Emperor.

I take it you have read Legion? Without the heresy taking place, there is no reason for them to join the traitors, i would say their reasons for joining Horus are pretty clear after reading Legion.

All evidence points to Horus being utterly crucial to the chaos plans and he being the ones to unite everyone, as he was the warmaster, the most charasmatic of them, he knew exactly how to get them to join him.

And i wouldn't say any of those Primarchs are pragmatics at all. Alpharius and Omegon were the pragmatists of the primarchs.
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post #28 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 10:00 PM
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The Lion is loyal, he has proved this enough, all we have is one book with a traitor marine claiming he is not. Every other shred of evidence points to the Lion being a loyalist through and through and utterly loyal to the Emperor.
In First Heretic we are shown that the Gods had plans for him. Clearly these plans did not come to fruition and I do not doubt the Lions current loyalty. However, in a purely speculative discussion such as this, such things cannot be taken lightly. I have suggested other reasons why the Lion might have joined/lead a different Heresy.

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I take it you have read Legion? Without the heresy taking place, there is no reason for them to join the traitors, i would say their reasons for joining Horus are pretty clear after reading Legion.
Because Xenos told them too? That seems highly unlikely to be the only reason. It completely degrades their intelligence. Also, am I the only one who gets a very serious Tzeentch vibe from the Cabal? Ultimately I think the Alpha Legion thought the Imperium was weak and acted accordingly.

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All evidence points to Horus being utterly crucial to the chaos plans and he being the ones to unite everyone, as he was the warmaster, the most charasmatic of them, he knew exactly how to get them to join him.
Again, I cannot think of a single primarch who turned solely because of Horus' charisma. Each and every other one of them had other reasons, many of which were created by Lorgar and the Word Bearers.

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And i wouldn't say any of those Primarchs are pragmatics at all. Alpharius and Omegon were the pragmatists of the primarchs.
I believe that each of them had "A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems." which is how thefreedictionary.com defines pragmatism and how I was using it.

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post #29 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 10:11 PM
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Well Legion makes it look pretty clear thats what they decided. The vision they were shown seems to be more than just a simple vision, it seems to have imprinted on them on such a level(likely psychic) as to make them believe it was true. As they definetly seemed to go for it and believe it straight away as they went to attack the Imperial fleet with them straight away. And they very much claim to still be 'For the Emperor' and theres no need to lie to a man your about to kill or too each other when talking.

In regards to the Lion being shown with the traitors in The First Heretic, ADB himself who wrote that has gone on to say he believed the Lion to be utterly loyal, and even though the gods had plans for him and attempted to corrupt him, he still remained loyal to the end. Will have to find the interview.

Hmmm and i will concede the pragmatism on the basic defintion, i was more going on the philosphy of it. Regardless i'll concede that one.

It's not Horus charimas that soley turned them. It was Horus that played upon the misgiving they had and turned that to his own ways and unified them.
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post #30 of 37 (permalink) Old 12-19-10, 10:17 PM
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Well Legion makes it look pretty clear thats what they decided. The vision they were shown seems to be more than just a simple vision, it seems to have imprinted on them on such a level(likely psychic) as to make them believe it was true. As they definetly seemed to go for it and believe it straight away as they went to attack the Imperial fleet with them straight away. And they very much claim to still be 'For the Emperor' and theres no need to lie to a man your about to kill or too each other when talking.
So alter the vision a bit so it shows the new Heresy doing the same thing. Not beyond the realm of possibility or the machinations of Tzeentch (although apparently I am the only one who thought that, boo).

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In regards to the Lion being shown with the traitors in The First Heretic, ADB himself who wrote that has gone on to say he believed the Lion to be utterly loyal, and even though the gods had plans for him and attempted to corrupt him, he still remained loyal to the end. Will have to find the interview.
I've read that discussion and I stated exactly that in my previous post. The Gods had plans for him, they didn't come to pass. In the speculative universe that this debate is taking place in I do not feel that we can safely assume that is still the case.

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Hmmm and i will concede the pragmatism on the basic defintion, i was more going on the philosphy of it. Regardless i'll concede that one.
Fair enough, that's the problem with words like that and the internet.

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It's not Horus charimas that soley turned them. It was Horus that played upon the misgiving they had and turned that to his own ways and unified them.
I think another Primarch would have been able to do the same thing. Lorgar for example does a decent enough job in First Heretic before the Drop Site Massacre.

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