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post #1 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 12:33 AM Thread Starter
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Default Guilliman the Greatest Primarch (Spoilers)

(SPOILERS)


Roboute Guilliman is an interesting character, especially since he has been barely touched about in the Heresy thus far. One thing about Guilliman I have found pretty interesting is his accomplishments, including the way he established the worlds he conquered. In a way, his accomplishments were much significant than the other primarchs. I find it interesting that despite this, Guilliman seems to be favored less than a few others. And also the amount of astartes he was able to muster to compared to other legions is indeed significant.

As to whether or not the astartes amount was established within their legion and world, or whether it was taken by other legions I present my speculations.

Taking in the more realistic aspect to how the legion acquired its number, is that they were able to conquer many worlds and with all those worlds unlike other legions; used as giant recruiting centers for the Ultramarines. My question is why other legions didn't do this. Sure some of their homeworlds weren't the best recruiting center, however, when seeing the growth of the Ultramarines and their success, surely that would have inspired other legions to launch success at the same rate.

Taking the rumor of the most recent source literally, I could see a reason why the Emperor would allow the Ultramarines to have the gene-seed from those fallen/disappeared legions. In many ways, the Ultramarines pre-heresy were the strongest legion in the Imperium. It works for the Emperor to have a checks and balances factor even with Horus as Warmaster. In the end, if indeed that was his intention, it worked out. Horus and his armies were afraid of the Ultramarines force coming to Terra's aid. Just that fact forced Horus to make some ill choices that cost him his life and the war.

Anyway, what are all your concepts of how, why, when, and whatever made Roboute Guilliman, Ultramar, and the Ultramarines basically the greatest establishment in the Imperium.

And for all you "poster boy" haters that disagree with this, go ahead and explain why you think they weren't the greatest.
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post #2 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 12:46 AM
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I think Roboute was a very accomplished primarch, a cocky arrogant prick, but accomplished nontheless, for the reasons you listed more or less.

I anticipate idiocy though, when the ultra-haters show up.

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post #3 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 12:55 AM
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Because they're BLUE! $5 that is what it boils down to.
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post #4 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 01:54 AM
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The Emperor was astounded to find a world so well-ordered and prosperous [Macragge], and realised at once that Roboute Guilliman was a Primarch of unsurpassed ability and vision.
pg. 13, History of the Ultramarines, 5E Space Marines Codex

Conquered more worlds than any other Primarch, left the worlds better than the Ultramarines found them, was so tactically brilliant that it frightened Horus...the more I read Guilliman's entry, the more I wonder if the Emperor just made Horus the Warmaster as a joke to tell his Custodes while working on the Imperial webway. After all, last I checked in the 5E Rulebook, Horus was his most trusted servant...

I could go on and on about how much I dislike the work of Matt Ward, but when Roboute Guilliman divides the legions into chapters to prevent any one individual from holding so much power, yet those chapters all consider Marneus Calgar to be their "spiritual liege"...

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Few Chapter Masters could contemplate refusing a request from Lord Macragge, and throughout the campaign fresh squads and companies had arrived to place themselves under Sicarius' command.
pg. 48, The Zeist Campaign, 5E Space Marine Codex

...well, I just smell a rat is all. If Guilliman meant to prevent power from being held by one individual, yet all of these other chapters willingly submit themselves to Calgar, that means Guilliman failed in the long run.

But again, I could just be speaking out of dislike for Matt Ward. I wouldn't have a problem with the Ultramarines or their various ICs if he would just stop shoving them in my face like it's the best intellectual property to be written in the history of ever.

Homebrew stuff for your viewing pleasure:
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post #5 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 02:20 AM
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The primarch of the Ultramaries was, by all accounts, highly accomplished and highly efficient but he wasn't "better" than the other loyalist primarchs. He was just different. The citizens of Ultramar and its protectorate worlds are substantially better off than the citizens of most imperial worlds but the Ultramaries were, among other things, highly lucky during the Horus Heresy to have managed to avoid the worst of the fallout from that conflict. As we all know the Ultramarines were largely uninvolved in the major battles of the Heresy by design, Horus did not want to have to deal with Guilliman's tactical skills being comparable to his own.

In fact the Ultramarines were able form their little corner of paradise as a direct result of not having to deal with the reconstruction efforts that most of the rest of the galaxy presumably must have had to do.

Honestly look at the loyalist legions after the Heresy.

The Raven Guard and Salamanders were basically nonexistent and even now are under strength.

The Blood Angels needed to separate themselves from the population of their own world to ensure the safety of the tribes of Baal.

The Dark Angels planet, which was admittedly no paradise planet, was little more than a memory and the Dark Angels themselves would be forever paranoid of pretty much everything.

The White Scars were never really in the running for "best chapter" anyway, they're a great bunch but they like that whole "track one asshole down and beat him to death for having looked at us cross ten years ago and put his head on a pike" thing that really puts them out of the running.

The Space Wolves are far too independent to be bothered with keeping and regulating an empire.

The Imperial fists could give them a run for their money on the whole "noble paragon" schtick but the collective guilt of the chapter at not having been able to save the emperor in spite of having assaulted Horus' battle barge with him drove them a bit nutty. Which brings us to the back templars who are batshit freaking insane.

The Iron Hands have always been standoffish and the heresy seemed only to solidify their ties to the admech and make them more at odds with even their brother chapters.

The Utramarines were bound to be more prosperous in the time following the Heresy if only because their legion was still alive to fight.
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post #6 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeswind View Post
In fact the Ultramarines were able form their little corner of paradise as a direct result of not having to deal with the reconstruction efforts that most of the rest of the galaxy presumably must have had to do.

The Utramarines were bound to be more prosperous in the time following the Heresy if only because their legion was still alive to fight.
Let us not forget that the Ultramarines certainly were at the forefront of the fighting throughout the Scouring though. Losing 90% of their Legion number in the turbulent period following the Heresy.

They may not have been heavily involved in the wars of the Horus Heresy itself, but they certainly took the leading role in the bloody wars of the Scouring to uproot the chaos forces and send them reeling into the Eye of Terror.



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Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 11-09-10 at 02:54 AM.
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post #7 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
Let us not forget that the Ultramarines certainly were at the forefront of the fighting throughout the Scouring though. Losing 90% of their Legion number in the turbulent period following the Heresy.

They may not have been heavily involved in the wars of the Horus Heresy itself, but they certainly took the leading role in the bloody wars of the Scouring to uproot the chaos forces.
If memory serves that's 90% post codex astrates reformation meaning that the Ultramarines were a chapter rather than a legion at that time.
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post #8 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 02:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Todeswind View Post
If memory serves that's 90% post codex astrates reformation meaning that the Ultramarines were a chapter rather than a legion at that time.
No, they were a Legion during the Scouring. The Codex Astartes reforms came into effect after the Scouring. Which means they lost 90% of their Legion number.



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post #9 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
No, they were a Legion during the Scouring. The Codex Astartes reforms came into effect after the Scouring. Which means they lost 90% of their Legion number.
Which is probably where the 1000 man figure came from for the individual chapter's maximum size.

A fair point, but the other chapters were beaten to hell by the scourging as well and most of that fighting was not happening in Ultramarines territory
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post #10 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todeswind View Post
Which is probably where the 1000 man figure came from for the individual chapter's maximum size.
10% of the UM forces would number about 25000. How do we get 1000 from this?
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