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post #21 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 03:51 AM
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@darkreever,
Ah, well then it is not total horse shit. Learn something new everyday I suppose.
Well, if anything the ten thousand was the original starting number per legion. It seems that the authors for the Heresy series are starting to favour higher numbers, which would allow for greater losses and things being on a more epic scale.

So that ten thousand starting is likely now one hundred thousand; and seeing as the Ultramarines legion was noted as the largest, at nearly three times the size of an average legion, there is your two hundred fifty thousand.


Edit: I thought the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion after the Ultramarines? That would mean that they had to have, at some point, more than about one hundred fifty thousand marines in their ranks. Given the overall style and ways of the Word Bearers, I could definitely see something like that being the case.

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post #22 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 03:58 AM
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I doubt they would change it to that number.

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post #23 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:05 AM
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I doubt they would change it to that number.
Why not? If the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion than that would mean they need to be greater than legions like the Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. The Space Wolves and Iron Warriors were known for having larger numbers per wolf company and grand company (I think the range was between ten and twelve thousand) and had more than ten of these companies each. That would mean that at the most, the Word Bearers needed to have at least one hundred sixty thousand marines. (Assuming the Space Wolves had thirteen companies at twelve thousand strong, which they did not, they would have one hundred fifty-six thousand before the burning of Prospero.)

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post #24 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:05 AM Thread Starter
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It does have spoilers on the thread. Really for that reason on The First Heretic. And though its kind of hard to keep track of everything ADB says



edit: should we still use spoiler tags?
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post #25 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:10 AM
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I'd simply assumed it was a tactful way to retcon the two somewhat more.... flowery of the space marine chapters.

Honestly the freaking Rainbow warriors wouldn't really fit into the more grim-dark atmosphere of 40k.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rainbow_Warriors
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post #26 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:16 AM
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Why not? If the Word Bearers are noted for being the second largest legion than that would mean they need to be greater than legions like the Space Wolves, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. The Space Wolves and Iron Warriors were known for having larger numbers per wolf company and grand company (I think the range was between ten and twelve thousand) and had more than ten of these companies each. That would mean that at the most, the Word Bearers needed to have at least one hundred sixty thousand marines. (Assuming the Space Wolves had thirteen companies at twelve thousand strong, which they did not, they would have one hundred fifty-six thousand before the burning of Prospero.)
Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?

At Crawford,
Simply another layer of protection for those who haven't read the HH series in its entirely, or at least what we have now. Think of it as doublebagging it.

Last edited by gen.ahab; 11-09-10 at 04:26 AM.
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post #27 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:18 AM
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Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?
GW has a history of using implausibly minimalistic figures for the population numbers on space marines.
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post #28 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 04:23 AM Thread Starter
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Because that number is simply to large and to many legions were far below that number, although we really couldn't count the TS and the EC due to their respective tragedies. Still, I wouldn't say that the starting legion size was 100k marines. It is simply to grand for even the HH writers. Perhaps it would be more reasonable to believe that it would have been around 50-80k?
Certainly sounds more like what it is now. In Raven Flight for example the Raven Guard number around 80,000. But even that is considered a bit low, I believe his legion was the second smallest legion under the Salamanders. In the start of the battle for Istvaan in Fulgrim each legion appears to have sent around 40,000 marines in their initial assault. So I mean the bigger number is playing in well at least right now. The bigger numbers like the Word Bearers 100,000 and the Ultramarines 250,000 play a good role in the aspect of things because they are key components to each side right now.

In overall things, I imagine most legions numbered around 85,000- 95,000.
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post #29 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 06:59 AM
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Well in The First Heretic the Word Bearers entire legions is present and they number 100,000. It doesn't mention them as having another 50,000 hidden away anywhere, it specifically states they are all there. And the WB's shouldn't have lost that many men till that point seeing as they hadn't conquered as many worlds as the others.

As for Guilliman not being made warmaster depsite his skills? The Warmaster needed not only to be a brilliant general in terms of tactics etc but he needed to be charasmastic, have a gravitating perosonality. From The First Heretic it looks pretty clear that Guilliman is severly lacking in these areas. And despite how good his tactical mind was, Horus, Dorn and The Lion still raked up more victories than him over the Great Crusade. I still wouldn't say hes the greatest either.

You have Horus, the chosen son of the Emperor, excellent tactician, almost unrivaled fighter, charasmatic, loved by almost all, highest victories.

Dorn, second highest in victories, chosen to be the preatorians of Terra.

Sagnuinius. He and his legions made up the Emperos personal legion honor guard when he was still fighting.

The Lion. Tactical mind could easily rival Guillimans from what i've read, possibly the 3rd highest victory count aswell.

I'm not saying Guilliman isn't a great primarch, or bashing him. But the others all have their strengths that all put them on the same level, and he still does have his weaknesses.
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post #30 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 09:58 AM
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I could go on and on about how much I dislike the work of Matt Ward, but when Roboute Guilliman divides the legions into chapters to prevent any one individual from holding so much power, yet those chapters all consider Marneus Calgar to be their "spiritual liege"...

pg. 48, The Zeist Campaign, 5E Space Marine Codex

...well, I just smell a rat is all. If Guilliman meant to prevent power from being held by one individual, yet all of these other chapters willingly submit themselves to Calgar, that means Guilliman failed in the long run.

But again, I could just be speaking out of dislike for Matt Ward. I wouldn't have a problem with the Ultramarines or their various ICs if he would just stop shoving them in my face like it's the best intellectual property to be written in the history of ever.
Ah but Marneus Calgar is shown to be more than willing to 'bend the knee' to Commander Dante, he recognises that whilst he is one of the greatest Chapter Masters currently alive he is still virtually a neophyte when compared to the Master of the Blood Angels- Calgar's flaw is that he's prideful but even he isn't that arrogant.
Whilst Sicarius may have been placed in command of a combined force of Chapters he himself was more than willing to submit to the command of Logan Grimnar during the 13th Black Crusade, it's swings and roundabouts in the end.

Plus Calgar is renowned amongst the Ultramarines as being the greatest Chapter Master they've ever had, who is only eclipsed by Guilliman in terms of what he has achieved so considering the regular contact the Ultramarines strive for between themselves and other Astartes (a necessity considering how far on the edge of Imperial space they are) the fact that other Chapters are willing to heed the words of the Master of the most celebrated of Chapters is not too incomprehensible.
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Only problem with using ten thousand as your base for that figure is that most of the legions, Ultramarines included, were larger pre-heresy. They might have started off at ten thousand each, but many of the legions grew in size and the Ultramarines were no exception to this.

The number of chapters they go on to create in the second founding would likely go on to support this as well. They have fourteen known descendants in the second founding, adding themselves that would mean that they were at least fifteen thousand strong.
9 known Chapters, including the Ultramarines, were founded from the Ultramarines Legion (Apocrypha of Davio) but according to the Apocrypha of Skaros 23 Primogenitor Chapters were founded in total (so that would 24 inc. the UM who are not a 'Primogenitor').

Legion sizes vary as we've all acknowledged and other than the 2 largest and the 2 smallest we have no idea the approximate numbers for each Legion really- recap:
Ultramarines- 250,000
Word Bearers- 100,000

Thousand Sons- 12,000
Emperor's Children 10,000?

Personally I think Guilliman was the greatest Primarch in his way, he made the difficult decisions that he knew might alienate him from his brothers but he did them anyway, everything he did was done to ensure the Imperium's survival- maybe there were underlying dreams of ambition, I don't know and couldn't really speculate, but in the end he succeeded with his intentions of leaving the Imperium a safer place.
He died an ignoble death but it was for mankind that he strived not personal glory or, necessarily, for the Emperor- that is the hallmark of true greatness.

Last edited by Baron Spikey; 11-09-10 at 10:02 AM.
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