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post #101 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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However the closest with Lorgar was with the destruction of Monarchia, and even then the Emperor himself ordered that and Guilliman took no pleasure in it.

In fact Guilliman himself turned the other cheek and ignored Lorgar's attack in him. I'm sure if he asked the Emperor to punish Lorgar for that the Emperor would have (given how disatisfied the Emperor was with Lorgar)
I agree with your analysis for the most part. This though... I'm not so sure. In a way that was the worst thing Guilliman did to Logar. It showed that Guilliman was so much better than Logar that he didn't even have to defend himself. As for Guilliman not taking satisfaction... I'm not really sure about that either. All we can do is make assumptions. You have your own assumption over the matter which is fine. But I must say, that was quite the most disrespectful display I've seen from a primarch to another primarch yet. Primarly because it was a big surprise indeed to see the Emperor suddenly disaprove of Logar's methods and the fact that the whole planet's accomplishments burned to the ground.

@Spikey Baron, having luck is better than no luck. Hahaha, just teasing both of you.
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post #102 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 10:11 PM
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I agree with your analysis for the most part. This though... I'm not so sure. In a way that was the worst thing Guilliman did to Logar. It showed that Guilliman was so much better than Logar that he didn't even have to defend himself. As for Guilliman not taking satisfaction... I'm not really sure about that either. All we can do is make assumptions. You have your own assumption over the matter which is fine. But I must say, that was quite the most disrespectful display I've seen from a primarch to another primarch yet. Primarly because it was a big surprise indeed to see the Emperor suddenly disaprove of Logar's methods and the fact that the whole planet's accomplishments burned to the ground.
Well, let me put it like this. Guilliman showed no joy. We don't know how he felt, but he appears to have taken no joy in the fact. I was more responding to LordWaffles assertion that Guilliman did it for shits and giggles. He did not.

We would have to wait for an Ultramarine Heresy novel to see what Guilliman's personal thoughts are.

Last edited by Gree; 11-10-10 at 10:13 PM.
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post #103 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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Well, let me put it like this. Guilliman showed no joy. We don't know how he felt, but he appears to have taken no joy in the fact. I was more responding to LordWaffles assertion that Guilliman did it for shits and giggles. He did not.

We would have to wait for an Ultramarine Heresy novel to see what Guilliman's personal thoughts are.
I for one do believe Guilliman did it the way he did it because he was arrogant. But honestly, many primarchs were very arrogant. Guilliman had a case in both Alpharius' and Logar's "bashings." Alpharius liked to win his battles perfectly, some can even go as far to speculate that they rivaled Guilliman's tactics (of course Guilliman also had many more years to show his accomplishments than Alpharius did).

I don't remember the exact fluff on the story. But it was something like the Alpha Legion spent many months attacking a fortress and basically destroyed the opposition with losing less then ten astartes. Guilliman responded in the lines of something that Alpharius spent much time and bolter rounds when he could have just destroyed it and moved on with the crusade.

There are a few ways of looking at it. One, Guilliman just had a large voice in the matter of how the Crusade was fought. Which can be further shown when it seems that Guilliman might have told the Emperor what happened in the Ghenna Scouring. I doesn't flat out say so, but I do believe the Ultramarines took part of it at the end. The World Eaters just charged a fortress getting themselves killed and in rage killed everyone in it.

Another look, is that competing legions like Logar's loyal worlds and Alpharius' great tactics made Guilliman call them out in showing their so called flaws, so that he could be the favored primarch.
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post #104 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 10:59 PM
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I don't think they failed the Emperor, they were faced with overwhelming odds and would have suceeded had the Empeor not risen to Horus bait and fought him. Point i was making was if you say the Imperial Fists failed the Emperor by not protecting him, then they all did, and like i said the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and White Scars would have successfully defended the Emperor had he not gone to Horus and waited a few more hours for the Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines to arrive
But you have to look at the reasons as to why they were facing overwhelming traitor forces during the Siege of Terra. Let's face it, Hours outplayed and outclassed Dorn at every turn. Regardless of whether or not Dorn could have done more to protect the Emperor, he felt as though he had failed, and that was enough.

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He's the only primarch to outright make two enemies for no other reason then he didn't like them. I'll agree that with Dorn and Khan he saved face by not insulting them in the meetings. But he made dire enemies of Alpharius and Lorgar, both for going outside what he thought was right.
That wouldn't be nearly as bad if he wasn't a complete jerkass. After discussing indignantly with Alpharius, he snubbed his nose at the AL and taunted with a "I've been around longer". Surely not the great diplomat? Although these imperfections might make him more believable as a character, they don't seem to fit in line with making him more likable.
He didn't make an enemy out of Alpharius at all. During a tactical discussion he criticised the Alpha Legion's record/methods - knowing that they would never match the quantity of victories the Ultramarines had, thus validating his own tactics. Alpharius suggests in Legion that there was no real enmity between them, in fact he states that he simply ignores Guilliman.

As for Lorgar, well most Primarchs never saw eye to eye with him due to his abnormal beliefs. Guilliman became the focal point for Lorgar's frustration (which eventually turned into hatred) as the Ultramarines were lauded as the example Legion - everything the Word Bearers should have been. This was further reinforced by the Emperor himself by Guilliman being present in the ashes of Monarchia.

It was an irrational hatred really, a symbol of Lorgar's rejection of everything he was intended to be.

Other than that though, Guilliman is generally seen to have had acceptable to good relations with his brothers. Horus even notes in Horus Rising that he needs the backing of Guilliman in order for his role as Warmaster to be successful, he looked up to Guilliman for such approval as a younger sibling would look up to an older brother.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #105 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-11-10, 12:11 AM
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seems to me that wether you love him or loathe him the powers that be will always look to the UM as the exeplonary leigon, something he has to be applauded for i suppose but the one thing i will say and i have already stated i am not a UM fan although i do like Ventris and the 4th, at least you knew where you stood with Gulliman, there as no grey areas it was black or white, agree with him or not you knew where you stood and that in itself has to be lauded.
who knows if maybe he had got to Horus first things might have turned out different as CoTE says, Horus did look up to Gulliman he knew he could always count on a straight answer from Gulliman just as he could Dorn or Sanguinus.
had he courted advice from the UM patriach things might well have been so much different.
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post #106 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-11-10, 06:57 AM
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But you have to look at the reasons as to why they were facing overwhelming traitor forces during the Siege of Terra. Let's face it, Hours outplayed and outclassed Dorn at every turn. Regardless of whether or not Dorn could have done more to protect the Emperor, he felt as though he had failed, and that was enough.
I agree, said so before, Dorn and the Fists may have felt they failed the Emperor, but they didn't really, no more than any of the other legions did anyway
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post #107 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-11-10, 07:01 AM
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Everyone felt like they failed. Well Russ and Dorn in any case.
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post #108 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-11-10, 07:40 AM
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Where the discussion of the Primarchs is concerned, I think the main issue at hand is that we all naturally approach our critiques of such people with our own value systems.

I look at the Primarchs, and I think of other people in positions of power, authority, status, wealth, celebrity, etc. Famous athletes and other sorts often strike me as being tremendously arrogant. I think about it a little further, though, and I consider how universal this seems to be... and then I consider whether what I construe as arrogance is, in fact (not always, but often enough), the self-belief and drive that is necessary to succeed at such a prominent stage. A self-belief that is reinforced by one's, no offense intended, superior attributes--whether that's physicality, looks, business acumen, charisma, etc.

And there is no stage more prominent, or more defining, than that of a Primarch. Primarchs come off as arrogant, but really it's that sense of self-belief coupled with the knowledge that they are designed to be the smartest, strongest, most charismatic beings in the Galaxy.

When there are only eighteen such beings out there, and they happen to be brothers, there will competition. When their life is defined by violence on a galactic scale, those interactions will eventually bear poison fruit.

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... but i guarantee a large portion of the population would have no hope of becoming astartes because they aren't good enough, a 'side effect' of a nice lifestyle.
They don't have a "nice" lifestyle, though. Military training and service is compulsory for everyone. They're not even allowed to live with their families until they are thirty years of age (a nod to Sparta's own laws).

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... if you take away the hardships of the [Baal] and let them live in a nice protected biome, you now still have a very low population, of which its likely only the minority will be good enough to pass the trials of becoming an astartes.
If they did that, the human population would boom within a generation by virtue of not being murdered left or right, or succumbing to radiation poisoning, malnutrition, etc.

If they did that while maintaining a strict, life-long military regimen over the people of Baal, they would have an expanding population with the traits needed to make it through Astartes selection.

Ultimately, we may have to agree to disagree on this. I simply cannot come to terms with the idea that inflicting the worst kind of life-long physical damage on a person somehow serves as the equalizer to only having a pool of 20,000 or so viable candidates every year for Astartes selection (120,000 or so, divided by two for males, further divided to arrive at the appropriate age group).

Baal teaches hardship and survival to these kids for a maximum of 12 or so years. Macragge (and Ultramar by extension) teaches ethics, exemplary mental discipline and physical fitness, and a gamut of fighting skills. I simply don't see how the former outweighs the latter in any meaningful way. I'm not saying the Baal way doesn't serve a purpose; I'm simply saying it's not necessary.

EDIT:

The more I think about it, the "necessary" aspect of Baal has comparatively little to do with physical challenges, hardship, etc., when compared to the religious aspect. The tribes that allied with Sanguinius when he first arrived there deified him. The Blood Angels themselves are one of the Chapters that deify the Emperor. In that sense, the religious imperative of maintaining links with the tribes that worshipped Sanguinius, himself the son of a god, would be tremendous. Leaving the planet in the conditions the son of the god found it in, and maintaining the conditions his worshippers defined themselves under would also be very important.

In a way, it's kind of like in the Dune novels. The Fremen defined themselves by the hardships/way of life of their desert planet. Even when the technology was made available to them to change their planet, the warriors among them resented such a transformation. On the other hand, the Fremen were neither starving nor irradiated!

I can imagine the Blood Angels having to face similar considerations, though.

Cheers,
P.

Last edited by Phoebus; 11-11-10 at 07:59 AM.
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post #109 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-11-10, 11:28 PM
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once again Phoebus you have put a consciese arguement across for your opinion if i could rep you for that post i would
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post #110 of 110 (permalink) Old 11-12-10, 06:41 AM
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I'm just happy it came across as something more than a rant.

Thanks!
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