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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Default increasing chapter size to 2000

I recently read the chapter's due, firedrake and the latest BA codex, it seems the empirium is under heaps of stress.
To me it would seem an appropriate time to do something,
a simple thing would be allowing Chapters to increase their size to say 2000 marines,
this would be effective and the fluff would not be disturbed that much
what do you guys think would be an appropriate reaction of the empirium,
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 11:53 AM
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Well there is one majot problem with it though. The Reason the Chapters are down to a thousand in 40K, is because of earlier evens. At the Horus heresy a chapter was kknow as a legion and was composed of 10,000 marines. That means when something goes renegade, shit hits the fan.

In 40K, increasing the size to 2000 Would efficiently double a chapters effeciency. But when a Chapter turns renegade (And it happens, but rarely) You'd ahve a problem twice the size. But requiring maybe 10 times the ressources to stop.

Besides, I don't think they have the gene-seed haha.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 01:23 PM
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Many Chapters already have problems maintaining their numbers at 1000, doubling them wouldn't help.
One of the reasons is that finding the raw materials (recruits) is very difficult, not everyone can become a Marine. You need to be the toughest of the tough to even get through the basics of selection, then you need to exhibit just the right balance of virtually uncontrolled rage and hatred mixed with a dash of extreme psychosis and all the charm of Ted Bundy.
Blood Angels and their successors also have the problem of the Black Rage, meaning that by doubling their numbers they would probably just double the the problem, there's only so many Death Company lunatics a Chapter can deal with.
Then there is the near religious adherrance of many Chapters to the Codex Astartes, a tradition that has been kept up for 10,000 years and isn't about to go away.

Ultimately, there are many things that the Imperium could do to get themselves out of the crap, but they won't do it because they are blinded by faith and tradition. Loyalty is absolute and free thinking is frowned upon, the Imperium's biggest enemy is the Imperium.

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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 03:19 PM
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I agree, even really competent chapter masters are hard to come by.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 03:31 PM
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Yup - one clear is issue each Chapter would need a LOT of gene-seed to do so, and chapters with unstable gene-seed (Blood Angels, Raven Guard) or special requirements (it's implied Space Wolves can only be made from Fenrisians, hence the failure of the attempted successor chapters) would find this impossible. Even stabler sources like the Ultramarines would struggle.

Next problem is equipment. Astartes equipment, especially powered armour, is not mass-produced any more. It's mostly hand me downs that have been continually repaired and sometimes improved over millennia - very few entirely new suits are made. Though a space marine is still a powerful force without power armour or bolters, it's an important consideration.

The Imperium already has roughly a million marines, they're just fragmented so they can police the Imperium better and their autonomy makes it easier to them to function, logistically.

Lastly, of course, you have the loyalty issue. A few Chapters - the Black Templars and Space Wolves, off the top of my head - have more than the Codex thousand and are scrutinised for it. The new supplements on the Badab War reveal the Astral Claws had swollen to nearly five thousand.... Which made their treachery even more devastating and would be used by anyone who championed the Codex or opposed such a reform as the definitive proof that it's better to make new Chapters rather than bolster existing ones.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 05:42 PM
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Space Marines seem to be the be all of the Imperium, but they are only used if a planet is attacked by a superior force, that the Imperial guard may need help with, more of a special forces role. They need to be able to move quickly to get in quick and change the tide of a battle rapidly. It would make more sense to have a marine chapter in every segmentum of the Imperium and even better in every system or sector, at least as a posting base rather than just on recruiting planets.

A legion or chapter only goes renegade when choas seeks to turn them against the Imperium - the only defense against that are leaders of exceptional qualties, and also a strong sense of discipline in the core beliefs of the chapter. Whatever the structure of the Chapters only the strong willed and noblest of souls can truly resist the blandishments of the dark powers, who will pray upon any weakness and feelings of betrayal or rivalry.

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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:26 PM
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The Space Marines are actually a tiny force in the galaxy, even if you managed to group them all together they wouldn't even fill a tenth of an average hive spire. They number around a million (being generous), in a galaxy of billions of worlds thats nothing.
Space Marines are the uber elite and are only used in the most dire circumstances when their skills can best be put to use.
If you were to put them up against the entire strength of the Imperial Guard the SM's would get smashed to bits by sheer weight of numbers (despite their .
So, despite all the armies you see at GW or your local tournaments in fluff terms the Astartes are little more than a drop in the ocean.

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:44 PM Thread Starter
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sounds fair although I feel the 1000 marines/Chapter has been decided (in the Codex I guess), and to me does not seem like the optimal value from a mathematical point of view.
a question regarding the recruits,
the pre heresy ultramarines had > 100 K marines, that means there are recruit supplies to muster this number (and that is before all those planets were re-united), now my question is, do the the successor chapter add up to this number ? my gut feeling says no.
The same goes for the SW if they could muster the pre heresy numbers from Fenris (and Fenris only) why can't it no longer be done, besides the fact that the inquisition would get more annoying. Same goes for raven guard (raven's flight) and blood angels, I do not think the successor chapters add up the the pre heresy numbers although the intrinsic number of recruits has not decreased. Moreover pre heresy there were about 22*100K marines , that is at least twice the current amount of marines.
Regarding the armour, that is a valid point although I was under the impression that e.g. MK 8 armour is still made rather industrial (except for the marines malevolent) except terminatour armour is extremely rare. Another example, I guess in courage and honour were Ventris gets his new armour there was a tremendous stockpile where he could chose from.
if 1M marines can keep the empirium from crumbling, 2M marines might actually turn the tide a little,
what are your thought on measures that can be taken to extend the lifetime of the empirium of mankind
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 07:12 PM
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A lot could be done to ensure the survival of the Imperium, reducing it's size being one idea. If they pulled everyone closer to Sol system then it would be easier to defend while they tried to rebuild their strength to pre Heresy levels.
They could increase the size of the Marine Chapters, try and find a way to communicate without needing the Emperor on the toilet. Research new weapons or copy Xenotech, maybe try and work out how the Necrons can travel as fast as they do.
They could stop feeding Psykers to the Emperor and try and turn them into a coherent fighting force.

The problem is, none of this is ever going to happen, ever!
The Admech think that spanners are holy relics, all (human) technology is sacred and to tinker with it is the greatest of sins. Anything alien or Xenos is a heresy against the God Emperor and Omnissiah, anything.
The Imperium is the ultimate in tradition and blind obedience, they have been conditioned not to think for themselves through 10k years of mindless repetition and authoritarianism.
The Imperium could try and forge alliances but 10K years+ of extreme xenophobia has already pretty much closed that door for them.
All the laws and rules that the Emperor laid down before the Heresy worked becuase he was winning, now he is a dried up husk wired up to the golden throne those rules are destroying the Imperium.
The human race is so caught up in following Him that they are blinded to what is going to happen, they're gonna get whipped silly on all sides.

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 07:31 PM
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People really have to understand the nature of the Adeptus Astartes. They are an ultra-elite fighting force. They do not (for the most part) fight wars of attrition, they tackle the toughest battlefield objectives often in support of the Imperial Guard.

Gone are the days when Legion sized forces battled the enemies of the Imperium as a frontline force. The Adeptus Astartes now usually act as a rapid-reaction force, deploying quickly and cleanly to an area in support of PDF or Guard forces. Chapter's don't have the numbers, resources or supplies to fight prolonged wars by themselves.

Increasing the chapters sizes to 2,000 Astartes would be pointless and actually counter-productive. It wouldn't be possible to just suddenly recruit an extra thousand Astartes into each chapter which means the numbers would have to come from existing chapters. Which would mean cutting the number of chapters roughly in half, which in itself threatens to spread them too thinnly across the massive space they have to defend. The formation of the Adeptus Astartes from the Legio Astartes was a sensible move given the nature of the Imperium and how it needed to be defended, as well as not allowing individuals too much power and influence over the elite forces of the Imperium.

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Originally Posted by piemelke View Post
the pre heresy ultramarines had > 100 K marines, that means there are recruit supplies to muster this number (and that is before all those planets were re-united), now my question is, do the the successor chapter add up to this number ? my gut feeling says no.
The Ultramarines Legion numbered ~250,000 Astartes Pre-Heresy. Considering the Ultramarines Legion is ultimately responsible for around 60% (is that right Baron?) of the current Astartes Chapters, that adds up to about 600,000 Astartes drawn from Guilliman's geneseed.

As for the overall number of Astartes, there are ~1,000,000 Astartes in M41. Pre-Heresy (going by the average Legion size being 100,000) there were ~2,000,000 Astartes prior to the Heresy, probably slightly less - considering how much under-average some Legions were in terms of numbers (Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons as examples). So we can say there are roughly half the number of Astartes in M41 as there were 10,000 years ago at the height of the Great Crusade.

This is an acceptable decrease in numbers considering the Horus Heresy, subsequent Scouring and disappearance of the Primarchs. The Legion's suffered massive casualties during the Heresy and Scouring, and the disappearance of the Primarchs made the process of creating Astartes much more difficult. Add to all that 10,000 years of constant warfare and the number of ~1,000,000 Astartes is acceptable.

However the Ultramarines seem to be the only Legion that have increased in Astartes, at least in the sense of total number of Astartes carrying Guilliman's geneseed. This can be put down to Guilliman's influence himself, and the fact that most chapters use Guilliman's template and geneseed for their own chapter. There is also the rumours of the II and XI Legions (from The First Heretic) to take into account here, which if true further justify this increase in numbers.



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