First Heretic new Primarch Questions. (Warning: This may be a spoiler) - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 04:41 AM Thread Starter
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Default First Heretic new Primarch Questions. (Warning: This may be a spoiler)

OK in reading First Heretic there is a reveal of some of the primarchs as they land on their respected planets. Going through the paragraphs you can make comparisons and come to conclusions on which ones are shown.

It seems to me that the pods are shown in number order, from the traitor side.

That is except the first, which is clearly the Lion on Caliban.

The Lion's motives during the Heresy have been suspect for a while. Could this be painting the idea of him not truly being a loyal Primarch?

What are the thoughts of the other Heretics? Got other ideas? Think it mentions other Primarchs?
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 05:11 AM
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I think ADB only included the Lion because he knows that question will never be answered, or at least for a long time, and just wanted to stoke the fires of fan debates.

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 05:20 AM
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It definitely adds more current fluff from existing sources trying to make claim at such a notion. But yeah, pretty interesting. I do think they will do something that will make the Lion an unusual character compared to the other primarchs. But as far as being a straight up traitor for chaos I think not.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 05:38 AM
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Yeah, its already been made clear (or at least from my pov) that he's just sitting on the fence waiting to see who will be the definite winner, maybe chaos did not claim him as completely as the others. BL will probably maintain that throughout the rest of the series.

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 07:50 AM
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I'm wondering if Chaos had this planned all along (or at least after they learned of the Emperor backing out of the pact). Ingethel makes reference that Chaos started seeding worlds in the past with the taint of Chaos (how they went about this I don't know). I'm wondering since the pact between the Emperor and Chaos was not honored, Chaos seeded these Primarchs home planets, already laying the base for the Heresy; hoping to tear the kingdom of man in half and damn them to eternal war. Which leads me to my next question...

In the Rulebook on page 103 under Empire Among the Stars third paragraph, last few sentences. It reads "Warp space act as dimensional vortices, ensnaring spacecraft and tearing them apart with impossible forces. In others, time flows disjointedly with the material realm. Days become nanoseconds, minutes stretch into years, and the future spirals into the past.

Does this mean the scene where Argel'Tal and his marines cut the Geller Field cables, that they actually are the cause of the "incident" in which it's referred to when Chaos opens up a warp storm and scatters the Primarchs? Not just scattering the Primarchs, but placing the ones they believed would turn to Chaos seeded planets?

This daemon shows these marines a vision, but does she? Is time so bent that maybe they really are there? Ingethel keeps telling them not to disturb the workers or the Emperor will know they're there. That seems odd to me if it's only suppose to be a vision. Honestly, the Word Bearers are being deceived. Just how Horus was deceived. Yes, Horus was shown "A" future not "THE" future. Both Argel'Tal and Horus still had choice. A choice to determine any future. There would be no Heresy.

Truth is Treason in an Empire of lies.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 12:54 PM
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In regards to the Primarchs pod scene:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADB
In regards to ther Lions pod alongside the other traitor pods in the first heretic:

I can help shed some light on this, but yeah, that's the clearest explanation. Essentially, I envisage Caliban is a fairly tainted world, so the Chaos Gods have their talons into the Lion from the start - they bring him down onto Caliban, after all: a world plagued by Great Beasts and not exactly a million miles from the newborn Eye of Terror. He's one of the most obvious choices for corruption.

However, I don't subscribe to the notion that the Lion was tainted (or a traitor) himself. As he grew up, he was everything the Emperor needed him to be, sure. This vision represents right at the beginning, there was the potential for it all to go wrong. The Chaos Gods probably planned or hoped it would, but history evidently proved them wrong.

Of all the primarchs, I think the Lion needs to be credited with an almost unbelievable amount of willpower, even moreso than most of his brothers. He strikes me as one of the ones that Chaos could've dug their talons into very easily, but he apparently never suffered their touch at all.

Which is pretty darn cool.
It seems that the Chaos Gods viewed the Lion as potential for corruption, especially from the beginning. But it would seem on the surface of things that this didn't occur. But who knows, we havn't a clue what the Lion was upto throughout the Age of Darkness yet, except engage the Night Lords to some extent.



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 03:48 PM
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I thought the one on the mountain in snow was Dorn.
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Words_of_Truth View Post
I thought the one on the mountain in snow was Dorn.
Nope, that was Perturabo.

To quote Aaron again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADB
For kicks, here's the order the pods come down:

The Lion - in the forests of Caliban; Fulgrim on the plains of Chemos; Perturabo, among the mountain fortresses of Olympia; Curze, during the eternal night of Nostramo (and the only primarch-child to instinctively reach for a weapon when he saw civilisation); Angron, his face awash in blood and screaming in pain even as an infant; Mortarion, in the pollution-thick wilds of Barbarus; Magnus the Red, in Tizca; Horus, on the worthless world of Cthonia; Lorgar landing by the river near the City of Grey Flowers on Colchis (a vague Moses analogy...); and Alpharius, in some nebulous unseeable mystery place.

Basically, the Traitor Primarchs - in Legion order - and the Lion as well, perhaps reflecting the lore that he may or may not have been wavering in his loyalties, at least in the eyes of the Chaos Gods.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 04:31 PM
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ah ok. Kind of funny both Dorn and Perturabo share a similiar beginning.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 04:56 PM
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well the fact that Lion'el was originally planned to be corrupted and one of the traitor primarchs but turned out to act in a neutral state is pretty cool and i seem to like the character of Lion'el Johnson even more now

I was wondering as Lion'el was strong enough to resist the influence of Chaos and the gods would not all the traitor primarchs have been strong enough to stay loyal (Such as Alpharius/Omegon who are hinted to be loyal but turn traitor under the persuasion that turning traitor would be for the greater good), so it seems that the Emperors actions are more significant reasons for primarchs turning traitor, for instance disgracing Lorgar by telling him he was wrong in having faith, by condeming Magnus wrong because of his warning, leaving the crusade and refusing to tell Horus of his future plans, so the Emperor's leave from the crusade and his and his lack of guidance for his sons could be a more significant reason for why the heresy happend, in my opinion

Im not sure if anybody else picked up on this, but i count that the visions of the pods falling sum up to 10, half the number of primarchs, so i wasnt sure whether these were the list of all the primarchs that turned traitor, hinting that the two missing primarchs did not turn traitor, or whether this was a list of the primarchs that were originally supposed to turn traitor..

also two last questions if someon could answer for me
im unsure of where alpharius/omegon landed, but it hints that it could be some kind of ship, if so how could they be corrupted by chaos
and second why did the chaos gods not attempt to corrupt all of the primarchs by sending them to chaos corrupted worlds or other situations...?
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