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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 05:02 PM
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I'm assuming Lion'el was destined to fall after he took the fort of those Lupus fellows, he kind of did of course as the next Cypher was one of them.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 08:20 PM
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@ ferrus mannus. to your question of why didnt they try and turn all primarchs. my personal guess and it may be far off point but i think there is a possiblity of it be right is that this so called pact between the emperor and chaos could be that they split the forces down the middle and have a massive war and see who can win and well whoever wins gets the galaxy if you get my meaning. i think the emperor then went about trying to use the webway to try and limit the influence of chaos thus having a advantage, they caught wind of this scheme and devised their own. now being they live in a realm with no time then they could have witnessed it already and where all along trying to scheme to get the advantage themselves so seeded certain planets with chaos and when the primarch landed they got influenced or rebeled against said taint and the rest is history.

maybe chaos cant kill the emperor by there own means directly and he cant end them directly so while playing this game they both decide on a covert plan to rid themselves of each other i.e the emperor trying to stop worship and thus weakening chaos and chaos combining together, placing their power in a vessel (horus) and using him to defeat the emperor that way.

now i wont go into too much more detail as to the acuity vision but that could just be xeno tricks, chaos influenced or the truth. but im sure the emperor had certain things to counter chaos schemes as if some lowly eldar and other xeno can see the future im sure the emperor could have also. this train of thought could create a series of its own but ill leave it at that for the time being.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 08:37 PM
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The major thing I took out of the First Heretic are on page 296 in the chat between Argal Tal, Dagotal and Xaphen:

"But the 11th Legion-"
"Is expunged from Imperial record for good reason. As is the 2nd. I'm not saying I don't feel temptation creeping over me brother. A single sword thrust piercing that pod and we'd unwrite a shameful future"
"And deny the Ultramarines a significant boost in recruitment numbers"
... "Those are just rumours"
"... The 13th definitely swelled to eclipse all the other legions around the time the 2nd and 11th were forgotten by Imperial archives."

All I can say to this is wow This raises so many questions for me:
For the Ultras to have absorbed the 2nd and 11th Legions marines the Emperor must have approved it, as must Guilliman. This raises a question of what was their crime that was so bad that their entire Legions were dissolved and removed from the archives, but was not so bad that the Emperor and the Primarch who most liked to play by the rules Guilliman, was able to absorb the marines from the 2 Legions into his own? This would indicate that the 2nd and 11th geneseed was not corrupted as Guilliman would not have accepted them. Therefore I theorise that the 2nd and 11th Legions weren't corrupted by Aliens or Chaos as neither the Emperor nor Guilliman equally would have accepted such marines.

I wonder if the rumours about the Ultras is what made the Word Bearers dislike them amongst other reasons considering they saw the 2nd and 11th Legions actions as shameful and yet the Ultras absorbed these "shamed" marines and yet the Emperor still lauded their actions while shaming them and Lorgar?

Finally on this bit (that I can currently think of, more may yet come ), since 2/3rd of the current space marine geneseed comes from the Ultras, if they did absorb the 2nd and 11th Legions marines with their geneseed, some of the current Chapters may in fact be descended from the 2nd or 11th Legions?

The other bit I find fascinating is on page 163 where Lorgar and Magnus discuss the lost Primarchs and Magnus calls them the lost and the purged. This can either be taken to mean the 2nd Legion was lost (in some way) while the 11th were purged. Alternatively they were both lost and purged in some way. Also the Emperor talked to the other Primarchs about what to do about the Word Bearers and Horus, Magnus and Russ supported Lorgar and his Legion, with Russ saying he'd lost 2 brothers and had no desire to lose a third (interesting considering his later attitude towards Magnus and his Legion).

On a side note, since Russ and the SW are considered to be the Anti-Legion Legion, I wonder if they did the purging of the 2nd and 11th Legions?

From this I interpret this as even Russ saw what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions as sad rather than something to be rejoiced on and he didn't want to see it repeated. This is supported by Dorn and Malcadors attitude towards the Traitor Primarchs statues in the Lightning Tower where Malcador asks Dorn if he'd tear them down (which is what is hinted happened to the 2nd and 11th Primarchs statues) rather than just shrouded. Why did the Emperor simply laugh when tearing down the traitor Primarchs statues was suggested in comparison to the 2nd and 11th statues. It gets stranger and stranger!!

Sorry this is a long post (my first in a while) but reading the book has had my head buzzing!!
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 09:05 PM
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If it is true, yes it would have far-reaching ramifications.

However it's more likely that it's merely a rumour.

Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown View Post
Or it was a couple of soldiers joking and guessing why the Ultramarines were so huge compared to the other Legions. Which one seems more likely?
Originally Posted by Dead.Blue.Clown View Post
Naw, I'm genuinely surprised people are taking that as fact. It seems possible that it happened, but I don't really think it's likely. When one of them says "What? You're all thinking it..." it doesn't exactly feel like stone cold fact to me. They're just guessing and spouting rumour.

Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 11-04-10, 09:55 PM
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I do agree they're all spouting rumour but the info about the size of the Ultras increasing around the time of the 2nd and 11th being dissolved seems to be stated as something the person knows rather than simply rumour.

I agree the rest is opinion but it can be made to fit if I close my eyes and wish hard enough! *closes eyes*

I especially like the thought that the Word Bearers hate the Ultras for absorbing the shamed marines but still being lauded by the Emperor while they're ridiculed by him.

Originally Posted by Tawa View Post
"No, I don't care if it's 'fun', you are not attempting to shove your USB stick in my Scart socket....."
Originally Posted by Vaz View Post
"It won't fit" "That's what they always say first time"
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