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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Hmmm, I don't know...

Given, they could have just been fundamentally dishonest, but
Your spoiler is what led me to my statement.
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 07:43 PM
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Trusting the cabal is like trusting a DE chick when she tells you "me give you happy ending;" just because they say something doesn't mean it was true. Hell, they could have been manipulated by Tzeentch
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 07:50 PM
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But amazingly their predicted alternative is strikingly similar to the current state of Humanity. Not to mention that their predicted estimate for the end of Man happens to fall around the advertised "End Times" of the game's latest edition...
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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
Hmmm, I don't know...

Given, they could have just been fundamentally dishonest, but
The Cabal's prophecy featured in Legion is based on the assumptional observation that chaos was so heavily invested in humantiy, that the utter extinction of humanity (that apparently Horus would have brought about if he triumphed in the Heresy) would bring about it's destruction as well. However this complete investment is suppossed to be at the time of the Great Crusade/Heresy, it doesn't automatically mean that was the case from the beginning.

There are several established affairs which already refute humanity being the sole or primary contributor to the rise of chaos, and also refuting the Cabal's theory that the extinction of humanity would result in the extinction of chaos. Off the top of my head:
  • The War in Heaven is what resulted in the warp becoming chaotic and implied to be when the chaos gods began to coalesce; '...The growing pains of the young races threw the untapped energies of the warp into disorder. War, pain and destruction were mirrored in the bottomless depths of the sea of souls. The maelstroms of spirits unleashed in the carnage coalesced into the previously formless energies of the warp. Older warp entities became terrifying predators, rending at the souls of vulnerable psykers as their environment was torn asunder and reforged by the energies called forth for warring in the material universe.' - Codex: Necrons, page 26.
    - and that occured ~60,000,000 years ago according to our chronological perspective.
  • We know that the vast majority of mortal species in the galaxy already feed and empower chaos, thus I fail to see how the extinction of humanity would bring about the destruction of chaos. It would certainly weaken it's influence, but destroy it? No.
  • Slaanesh was primarily 'created' by the Eldar race, for chaos (thus including Slaanesh) to be solely invested in humanity a mere two hundred years after the Fall is absurd from this perspective.

We also have several passages in much more recent lore which seem to refute the chaos gods solely being human gods, or brought about primarily by humanity. Two easily found examples are:
  • 'While one mortal lies, while envy and ambition survive, Tzeentch will work his magic as the puppet master of the universe.' - Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 12. The same can be applied to the other gods and their respective emotions.
  • '...For billions of years these tides and waves flowed unceasingly through warpspace, and such is their power that they formed creatures made of the stuff of warpspace. These instinctual, formless beings gained rudimentary consciousness and the chaos gods were born - vast psychic presences made of the dreams and nightmares of mortals. As the races of the galaxy prospered and grew, so too did their hopes and dreams, their rage and wars, their love and hatred, feeding the chaos gods and nurturing their power. Eventually, the gods reached into the dreams of mortals their praise and servitude. A chaos god can only grow in power through the actions and thoughts of mortals.' - Codex: Chaos Space Marines, page 8.
    - Note that it apparently took billions of years for the energies of the warp to coalesce (obviously way before humanity was around), and it clearly states 'mortals' rather than simply 'humanity'.

And of course there is always the strong possibility that the Cabal were lying to Alpharius, which (if I am correct) is even subtely hinted at in The First Heretic.

Obviously it's possible that chaos is invested in humanity more than any other species currently ('...Chaos would also be much diminished without the rise of mankind.' - Codex: Chaos Daemons, page 23) - but I think it's absurd to suggest that the utter extinction of humanity would result in the utter extinction of chaos. I also think that given the now known nature of chaos, we know that the chaos gods weren't a result solely of (or even primarily of) the rise of humanity. There were countless psychic races around long before the rise of humanity which would have contributed a lot more to the rise of the chaos gods.

(Think I may have drifted into an off-topic rant there, but oh well )



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I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 10-30-10 at 08:54 PM.
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
There are several established affairs which already refute humanity being the sole or primary contributor to the rise of chaos, and also refuting the Cabal's theory that the extinction of humanity would result in the extinction of chaos. Off the top of my head:
Maybe if the 4 "bad boys" of chaos were severely weakened the surviving Eldar ones could finish them off, making the warp a friendlier place.

I dunno, just a thought

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Don't get me wrong brother. If there's one race that I wouldn't want to be captured by it's the DE. I'd rather set off a melta bomb in my pants than be taken alive by the dark eldar.
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by SnoopyChicken View Post
Maybe if the 4 "bad boys" of chaos were severely weakened the surviving Eldar ones could finish them off, making the warp a friendlier place.

I dunno, just a thought
The remaining Eldar gods being:
  • Khaine, who has been shattered and exiled from the warp - so that rules him out.
  • Isha, who is a goddess of fertility and healing.
  • Cegorach, the joker.

Unlikely.

Plus the Eldar race as a whole are on the precipice of extinction, they are not powerful or numerous enough to sustain gods anymore.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).

Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 10-30-10 at 11:36 PM.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-10, 01:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
The remaining Eldar gods being:
  • Khaine, who has been shattered and exiled from the warp - so that rules him out.
  • Isha, who is a goddess of fertility and healing.
  • Cegorach, the joker.
Unlikely.

Plus the Eldar race as a whole are on the precipice of extinction, they are not powerful or numerous enough to sustain gods anymore.
Not necessarily the Eldar gods, the point Im trying to make is that if humanity destroyed itself and that left the 4 main gods of chaos weakened, more benign warp entitys might be able to get a foothold

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Don't get me wrong brother. If there's one race that I wouldn't want to be captured by it's the DE. I'd rather set off a melta bomb in my pants than be taken alive by the dark eldar.
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 10-31-10, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by SnoopyChicken View Post
Not necessarily the Eldar gods, the point Im trying to make is that if humanity destroyed itself and that left the 4 main gods of chaos weakened, more benign warp entitys might be able to get a foothold
Whilst it's true that chaos would be much diminished without mankind, it is still sustained and empowered by every other psychic race in the galaxy. Even without the unmatched psychic sustinance that humanity offers, the chaos gods would still be the most influential and powerful deities within the warp.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SnoopyChicken View Post
Maybe if the 4 "bad boys" of chaos were severely weakened the surviving Eldar ones could finish them off, making the warp a friendlier place.

I dunno, just a thought
I don't think two and a half gods of a dying civilization can beat the manifestations of all of humanities deepest emotions.

Warp stays unfriendly.

I keep forgetting how hilarious my old posts are.

It's not a question of who will let me, it's a question of who will stop me.
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-01-10, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
The remaining Eldar gods being:
  • Khaine, who has been shattered and exiled from the warp - so that rules him out.
  • Isha, who is a goddess of fertility and healing.
  • Cegorach, the joker.
Unlikely.

Plus the Eldar race as a whole are on the precipice of extinction, they are not powerful or numerous enough to sustain gods anymore.
You forget the fourth Eldar god, namely Ynnead. Maybe once Eldar are extinct, he is going to be the fifth Chaos God.
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