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post #31 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 10:41 AM
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the chaos warriors are in thier own minds i supose still fighting the great crusade only now its been warped and tainted by thier centuries in the eye. I read in one book, soul hunter i think that it had only been a couple hundred years while here its been ten thousand years. the crusade is over but they are warriors no matter what side of the fence they sit on chaos or notthey will fight until the end of time, to complete what horus started just noone told them that in reality its a no win situation.
with chaos no one ever really wins except the thirsting of dark gods
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post #32 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Uilleam View Post
And when his 'children' learned the truth he sent assassins and their other brothers against them.
That's not true, though. He sent an assassin after Conrad Kurze, when he proved unwilling to cease engaging in horrific activities. Kurze's excuse holds no weight. There's no valid excuse for what he was doing in terms of his means of warfare. He himself only argued against the perceived hypocricy of his father's action. He never had a leg to stand on when it came to someone telling him to stop.

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Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda.
No they're not.

They absolutely had to poison and brainwash Horus, blackmail Magnus, and possess Fulgrim. There's room to argue that Perturabo was also brainwashed, and Angron was insane to begin with. Neither was the Night Haunter exactly a convert.

Lorgar was the closest thing they had to a genuine convert and...

... in order to achieve even that.

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The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics.
The World Eaters and the Emperor's Children completely lose it by the time Isstvan V rolls around. The Thousand Sons were mutating uncontrollably.

Given all this, I think it was good that...
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They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor ...
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Really, the 40K world is not about good vs evil.
In fact, it's about the so-called "lesser evil"--the moral compromises people undertake and the horrific effects they have on innocents and one's own soul--again the greater evil.

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Chaos isn't evil. It just simply is. It's like a hungry animal. It does what it has to in order to survive. You can't call a lion evil because it eats a gazel.
Chaos is sentient and has an agenda. A lion has neither, survival aside that is.

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Originally Posted by Child-of-the-Emperor View Post
I don't agree with that at all. 40k is all about ambiguity and personal interpretation, it's always been that way. If an individual interprets the setting as the Emperor being a mindless tyrant and Chaos being a worthwhile elemental force then thats their interpretation, and it's no less correct than yours or mine.

Often the Emperor may be portrayed as the 'good guy' but that's merely because most codicies and BL novels are from an Imperial point of view, it doesn't universally make it the case.
While I don't personally agree with the idea of Chaos being a worthwhile force (from the perspective of cost vs. benefit), I do offer a vigorous nod to the second paragraph: it's worth remembering, after all, that the Imperium is described as the bloodiest, most tyrannical regime imaginable, and that the Emperor's own incarnation of it (ref: Great Crusade) didn't really differ that much from it where the actual treatment of subjects was concerned.

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Originally Posted by Deus Mortis View Post
1) Similar reason to Angron, his entire existence was focused on toppling the tyrants of Barbarus. He had destroyed, over-thrown and freed the humans from all other warlord. He believed he was invincible, able to breath what no human should be able to, achieving feats no human could, the pinnacle of a kind. The only remaining enemy was his 'father', the man who raised him*. When he reaches the mountain top, he is unable to do the deed he has been building to for years, Imagine being denied his final victory, nothing else is above him, save the one thing he wants, revenge against the oppressive dictator. Then, some stranger snatches his victory from him. There must be huge resentment from Mortarion at this figure for talking the thing he has wanted from the day he has escaped? Would he not feel resentment at not even being allowed to die and avenged, but knowing he is dying and having to watch a stranger take his goal from him.
No offense, but this is as valid as Vulkan turning against the Emperor because he had the "audacity" to pull him off the cliff he was hanging from.

The Emperor didn't snatch Mortarion's victory from him. Mortarion collapsed, unable to continue, because even HE couldn't handle the poisonous gasses at the top of Barbarus' mountains.

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2) Also, as a side note, consider what kind of a mental complex that must build, his surrogate father was an 'evil' overload, who was not a true human, who oppressed fellow humans whom Mortation felt sympathy for, and the Emperor is...almost exactly the same! The Emperor could be viewed as a tyrant, who exploits his species for his macro goals (and as many have pointed out) and not caring for the individual. Could Mortarion, having seen another person who claims his father and acts exactly as his previous 'father', sought another way to over-throw this new tyrant, and therefore attempted to kill this 'warlord' where he had failed last time.
That would make more sense... all the way until the events of Isstvan III (where Horus proves himself to be a hypocrite) and Isstvan V.

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... Mortarion gives Garro the benefit of the doubt, and gives him the chance to turn with his legion, showing once again that he is one of the most empathetic primarchs.
"Join me in treason, or die."

;)

I hear you. Ultimately, it's different folks, different strokes/opinions.
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post #33 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 02:37 PM
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Well he didn't really give Garro a choice. He subtly figured out whether he would follow Horus or not. He did not once actually outright tell Garro, "We're all rebelling...soooooo you in?" He just decided himself that he wouldn't and sent him to the Eisenstein to be murdered by Grulgor
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post #34 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-09-10, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Phoebus View Post
That's not true, though. He sent an assassin after Conrad Kurze, when he proved unwilling to cease engaging in horrific activities. Kurze's excuse holds no weight. There's no valid excuse for what he was doing in terms of his means of warfare. He himself only argued against the perceived hypocricy of his father's action. He never had a leg to stand on when it came to someone telling him to stop.


No they're not.

They absolutely had to poison and brainwash Horus, blackmail Magnus, and possess Fulgrim. There's room to argue that Perturabo was also brainwashed, and Angron was insane to begin with. Neither was the Night Haunter exactly a convert.

Lorgar was the closest thing they had to a genuine convert and...

... in order to achieve even that.


The World Eaters and the Emperor's Children completely lose it by the time Isstvan V rolls around. The Thousand Sons were mutating uncontrollably.

Given all this, I think it was good that...



In fact, it's about the so-called "lesser evil"--the moral compromises people undertake and the horrific effects they have on innocents and one's own soul--again the greater evil.


Chaos is sentient and has an agenda. A lion has neither, survival aside that is.


If you read Soul Hunter, or Lord of the Night, I can't remember which, I believe Konrad talks about his father telling him to use his methods of terror to bring uncompliant worlds into compliance then punishing him for it. I've seen nowhere were it says the Emperor didn't.

Chaos didn't brainwash anyone. Erebus converted Horus more than the ruinous powers. Magnus willingly made a deal with Tzeentch. He didn't know who was dealing with but he wasn't forced. Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4. And the Chaos gods were sought out by the Emperor for creation of the Primarchs. He made a deal with them he had no intention in honoring. Hence why the gods scattered them. So yeah, Lorgar was touched by the gods. All of them were.

Of course the World Eaters were raving lunatics at Isstvan. With their implants would it not be normal to be utterly savage in combat? You don't get worlds to surrender before they have even fought you if don't deserve your reputation. The Emperor's Children fought they way they always do, trying to outperfom everyone else. Seeking perfection. Of course the Thousand Sons were mutating. They were channeling the warp. No one forced them to or tricked them into using sorcery.

Really had the Emperor told his children of the warp and the gods that dwelled within and been honest about what he knew he would have headed the whole thing off. The Emperor hid it from his children to further his own goals. He wasn't trying to spare the primarchs. I'm of the firm belief the Emperor wanted to destroy the Chaos Gods and surplant them. Especially since what mortals feel and believe has power in the warp then with no gods and a whole empire owing fealty to him he would be worshipped and become a new god. Instead of the pile of compost.

Lions seek out other male lions of different prides and murder them and all their offspring. Then take all the females. No agenda huh?

The one great thing about 40K though is it does make you think. It's not like Star Wars where everything is cut and dry and multiple other sci-fi settings. And it's great to interact with people who have varying opinions because sometimes you learn a different take on the whole thing, that while not in line with your own, is completely plausible.

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post #35 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Uilleam View Post
If you read Soul Hunter, or Lord of the Night, I can't remember which, I believe Konrad talks about his father telling him to use his methods of terror to bring uncompliant worlds into compliance then punishing him for it. I've seen nowhere were it says the Emperor didn't.
Off the top of my head (please correct me if I'm wrong), "Soul Hunter" and "Lord of the Night" both suggest that the Emperor sanctioned the Night Haunter's actions.

I admit my question amounts to nothing but conjecture, but I'm curious as to whether the Haunter simply abused what lee-way all the Primarchs got in terms of getting compliance. Perhaps it was also a case of "business as usual until someone tells you otherwise". Maybe even "silence equals sanction?"

I mean, unless the Haunter was sharing a battlefield with someone, who exactly was going to report him to the Emperor--the world he just complied?

On the other hand, we know that Dorn flipped out when he saw what the Haunter did (see "The Dark King"), and it would seem that his reports were one of the reasons why he was initially sanctioned.

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Chaos didn't brainwash anyone. Erebus converted Horus more than the ruinous powers.
After Horus was struck by the anatheme and exposed to Chaotic rituals on Davin. His conversion was hardly lucid, never mind informed.

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Magnus willingly made a deal with Tzeentch. He didn't know who was dealing with but he wasn't forced.
Sure he was. His Legion was re-mutating right in front of his eyes (Tzeentch being the cause for the first round of mutations as well, undoubtedly), his planet was being exploded, and Leman Russ had just struck his eye. On top of all that, Russ was doing what he was doing due to Horus' manipulation. I'd say Magnus was pushed to a corner.

Absolutely nothing prior to the attack on Prospero indicated Magnus wanted (A) to side with Chaos or (B) attack the Emperor.

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Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4.
Come now. Erebus, Kor-Phaeron, Lorgar, and a host of other individuals, were acting on a plan to bring about a dominion of Chaos, and ...


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And the Chaos gods were sought out by the Emperor for creation of the Primarchs. He made a deal with them he had no intention in honoring. Hence why the gods scattered them. So yeah, Lorgar was touched by the gods. All of them were.
First, that's Chaos' side of things. Second, that they were all touched to some extent is neither here nor there. The point is that they were hardly willing (or sane, in Angron's case) converts.

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Of course the World Eaters were raving lunatics at Isstvan. With their implants would it not be normal to be utterly savage in combat?
Nope, remember "Galaxy in Flames"? Remember Kharn, talking of the "Eight-Fold Path" right before he takes on Loken? Remember Loken talking about how Bizarro Chaos-Kharn was nothing like the man he met on the 'Vengeful Spirit'?

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Of course the Thousand Sons were mutating. They were channeling the warp. No one forced them to or tricked them into using sorcery.
No doubt about that. Hence the Emperor warning Magnus. But there's no denying that Tzeentch was intent on screwing them over all along, without letting them know about it.

What happened there is like the equivalent of your mother telling you not to mess around with drugs; you deciding you're going to experiment with some "harmless" stuff; a stalker loading your supply with radio-active waste and ground glass; and then that same stalker sending a berserke vigilante posse to burn your house down.

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Really had the Emperor told his children of the warp and the gods that dwelled within and been honest about what he knew he would have headed the whole thing off.
Agree to disagree!

Lorgar and his guys...


Given that, I can TOTALLY see why the Emperor was trying to keep it all on the down-low. How would it have gone any better had he told Lorgar of all people?

"Hey buddy... I know I pretty much stand in direct opposition to what you think is paramount in your existence... but I wanted to let you know that there are four super-powerful gods who pretty much are the embodiment of your beloved planet's religion. Please don't seek them out, though, since they're also super-evil. Just take my word for it."

The Emperor's agenda came down to removing the threat of Chaos from Humanity through inhuman means. No one says he was perfect, but I don't see how someone could assert that he was trying propogate his own ambitions.

"The First Heretic" pretty much spells out the 40k correlation between religion and Chaos. The intent would appear to be to remove that easy link/access to Chaos (and vice versa). Lorgar's feelings aside, I don't see how the Emperor's agenda in any way was leading toward self-deification. Had the Imperium not been turned upside-down, witnessed the absolutely demonic, supernatural and otherworldly, and then left with a huge void in its champion ascending to an undying sleep, any effort by the Emperor to secure himself a god-head would have been perceived as massively arrogant.

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Lions seek out other male lions of different prides and murder them and all their offspring. Then take all the females. No agenda huh?
I suppose, if you consider securing exclusive rights to hunting grounds and breeding groups an agenda...

As to the final paragraph, absolutely. I don't want to come off as heavy-handed or dismissive. It's fun to disagree on this stuff, because it just exposes you to different view points and ideas.

Cheers,
P.

Last edited by Phoebus; 11-10-10 at 04:42 AM.
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post #36 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 06:36 AM
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Nope, remember "Galaxy in Flames"? Remember Kharn, talking of the "Eight-Fold Path" right before he takes on Loken? Remember Loken talking about how Bizarro Chaos-Kharn was nothing like the man he met on the 'Vengeful Spirit'?
It's rather interesting, is it not, how the apparently patient, sane, and stable Kharn we see in After Deshea fully embraces the insanity and instability of Chaos in Galaxy In Flames?

We can point to the implants (which the Emperor should have removed or disabled in my opinion) and resentment at the Emperor's disregard for his men as the wedge issues for Angron's fall, but what's Kharn's excuse?
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post #37 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 07:22 AM
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We can point to the implants (which the Emperor should have removed or disabled in my opinion) and resentment at the Emperor's disregard for his men as the wedge issues for Angron's fall, but what's Kharn's excuse?
(Limited) Loyalty to his primarch, in inner darkness that Khorne exploited, or both?

Such a change of character is not completely out of the question.

Does anybody remember Saix from Kingdom Hearts 2? We see quite a change of character during his first (and only) battle against Sora.

To me, Kharn is not much different.


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post #38 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 08:54 AM
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Or how about the influence of the Chaplains?
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post #39 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 08:55 AM
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they say the Word Bearers were chosen by the dark gods for thier unwavering loyalty to their primarch, it wasn't an in-code gene thing it was a genuine love and affirmation to him, couldn't the same be said for Kharn? he alone faced down Angron after De'Shera despite knowing the fates of the other captains that went down to try and placate thier father, despite nearly being killed himself he proved himself to Angron, i would have thought there was a hell of a lot of love for the raging Primarch to put himself through that so maybe Kharn had an unwavering loyalty to his master that matched that of the word bearers to thier father. From reading Galaxy in Flames i think it was, it seemed to me that Kharn was the only one that seemed to be able to calm Angron down when he lost his rag.
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post #40 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-10-10, 12:17 PM
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Fulgrim was possessed, yes. But who put that sword in his hand? Horus. Not one of the great 4
Phobeus countered the rest of your points brilliantly. But on this one, Horus did not give Fulgrim that sword, he found it in the Laeren Temple, where it then slowly began to possess him and twist his mind, shit Horus had almost no hand in turning Fulgrim, at one point he was going to kill Horus until the sword stopped him from doing so.
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