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post #21 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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For the purposes of this discussion, let us put aside the major forces and their purposes, that being the Emperor and the Chaos gods. What I wanted to look at was the Primarchs themselves. As I said in the opening post, we know more from the 30k HH era and looking at that, does that change the way we see the 40k Demon Primarchs.

Lets use the film the exorcist as a metaphor, a demon has possessed a girl, now we see a head spinning slime projecting vomitting mad creature, but we DO NOT make the mistake of confusing the possessed with the possessor. Their are 2 beings here - a human and a demon. In the same way could we see in a Demon Primarch 2 beings a human and a demon - are there any recognisable traits remaining in them that are capable of looking at them selves intelligently and knowing regret.

In the sense of say Faust even if a person were to sell their soul to the devil who comes to them in the guise of a perfectly reasonable and believable way, later on, even if the person was willing to work with the devil for personal gain willingly, that person will come to regret that decision eventually.

Therefore even steeped in the service of the chaos gods are the Primarchs, even just one of them capable of an act of self honesty, or are they just head spinning projectile vomiting possessed idiots who have lost all self knowledge. At some point the inner person - would prefer to scream for "gods sake get this bloody demon out of my head."

As for the larger scheme, the Emperor has some mighty but flawed pieces on the board of intergalactic conflict and has lost a hell of a lot of them to a better master player, what must he feel. In the same way Magnus learns hubris is the Emperor capable of such a lesson.
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post #22 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 05:31 PM
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Apart from Fulgrim from what i understand the deamon primarchs aren't two seperate entitys as they have not been possesed. They themselves have become deamons, not possessed by one. Fulgrim of course is possessed
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post #23 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 05:51 PM Thread Starter
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They may not be possessed, but can you truly say they are free to walk away from service to the dark gods.

I know I would try, after 10,000 years of service to them I would try to escape, to free my soul and my legion from an eternity of evil.

Even better I would seek to gather my brother Primarchs and all their legions and assault the Chaos gods even if it were certain death to do so. For that purpose I was born. As all legions were born.

Chaos does not teach, it only betrays.

Knowledge is power, guard it well brothers.
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post #24 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:04 PM
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I have a theory on why Mortarian fell, if indeed he was ever elevated. It comes in two parts:

1) Similar reason to Angron, his entire existence was focused on toppling the tyrants of Barbarus. He had destroyed, over-thrown and freed the humans from all other warlord. He believed he was invincible, able to breath what no human should be able to, achieving feats no human could, the pinnacle of a kind. The only remaining enemy was his 'father', the man who raised him*. When he reaches the mountain top, he is unable to do the deed he has been building to for years, Imagine being denied his final victory, nothing else is above him, save the one thing he wants, revenge against the oppressive dictator. Then, some stranger snatches his victory from him. There must be huge resentment from Mortarion at this figure for talking the thing he has wanted from the day he has escaped? Would he not feel resentment at not even being allowed to die and avenged, but knowing he is dying and having to watch a stranger take his goal from him.

2) Also, as a side note, consider what kind of a mental complex that must build, his surrogate father was an 'evil' overload, who was not a true human, who oppressed fellow humans whom Mortation felt sympathy for, and the Emperor is...almost exactly the same! The Emperor could be viewed as a tyrant, who exploits his species for his macro goals (and as many have pointed out) and not caring for the individual. Could Mortarion, having seen another person who claims his father and acts exactly as his previous 'father', sought another way to over-throw this new tyrant, and therefore attempted to kill this 'warlord' where he had failed last time.

Given that, even when the Heresy was about to start and was instigated by his closest brother Horus, and Typhus and Grulgor could see that Nathaniel Garro would never side with this rebellion, Mortarion gives Garro the benefit of the doubt, and gives him the chance to turn with his legion, showing once again that he is one of the most empathetic primarchs.

Also, shortly at the end, the only reason he turned to Nurgle was that his legion was afflicted but couldn't die, and he felt like once again he was on the hill-top of Barbarus, unable to fell his greatest adversary once again. The suffering of his legion, combined with his inability to defeat his most challenging opponents lead him to desperation for a solution, a solution which Nurgle had in his open hand (Similar to Magnus wishing to save his legion from the Flesh Change).

Just my thoughts anyway!
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post #25 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by space cowboy View Post
I really don't have any issue with anything except for the last bit. The base setting, to a neutral observer with no particular rooting interest would classify the Imperium as the 'main character' protagonist with everyone except possibly Eldar and Tau as antagonists and those other two as anti-heroes (while sometimes doing good things, they do oppose the protagonist at times and have methods of which the protagonist would disapprove.)
im not trying alter your opinion but what im just trying to say is that it all depends on how you look at things. to chaos the imperials are the protaganist and visa versa. tau seem like they want to do things better than the imperium so you could look at the imperium as the protaganist in that sense. it just bores down to perspective.

hence my original point of its depends on the perspective of how you look at the primarchs to see which were right in being loyal to the emperor and which were right to side with chaos.
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post #26 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 07:02 PM
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I think the HH books just confirmed what I thought all along. The Emperor was a wanna be god using and abusing his followers with lies and misinformation. He would stagnate the human race under his rule for the betterment of himself. And when his 'children' learned the truth he sent assassins and their other brothers against them.

Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda. They are going to give you vast amounts of power, mutate you, and further their goals by any means necessary. And they believe in progression and evolution.

The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics. They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor so when Erebus came along and exposed the lie they rebelled. All for various different reasons. It wasn't just to cause murder and mayhem, it was to undo the empire they had been tricked into building and elevate the one they felt worthy to lead mankind into a new age for the betterment of humanity. Horus. It also shows that the primarchs weren't just automatons. They had feelings, motivations, and personalities. And they also had flaws.

Really, the 40K world is not about good vs evil. Chaos isn't evil. It just simply is. It's like a hungry animal. It does what it has to in order to survive. You can't call a lion evil because it eats a gazel. The Imperium isn't good. It brings slavery, misery, and pain then calls it protection and unity. Really, it's about the choice between two lesser evils. There are no protagonists or antagonists. It totally depends on where you are in the 40K universe. Neither the Imperium or Chaos is gonna let you leave after you join them. Both demand utter loyalty.

To the Eldar humanity as a whole is evil. To the Tau humanity is evil. To humanity those 2 species are evil. Goodness and evil are totally defined by the beholder.

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post #27 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by MuSigma View Post
They may not be possessed, but can you truly say they are free to walk away from service to the dark gods.

I know I would try, after 10,000 years of service to them I would try to escape, to free my soul and my legion from an eternity of evil.
Again though, you are thinking about this from your current viewpoint. The Primarchs (although never really human in the first place) have been reborn in mind, body and soul as a daemon. They are solely daemons now. That drastically changes their perspective, mentality and priorities.

They (with the possible exception of Magnus, and even that is highly doubtful) do not see themselves as enslaved to the Chaos Gods, they are immortal entities with untold power at their fingertips. They command and send entire armies and worlds to their deaths based on their slightest whims, they have achieved the favour of their patrons, they can do as they wish. If anything they are much more free now than they were under the yolk of the Emperor.

Note Corax's thoughts on why Angron turned in Raven's Flight - for the utter freedom.

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Originally Posted by MuSigma View Post
Chaos does not teach, it only betrays.
Could quite easily say the same about the Emperor from certain perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Uilleam View Post
Let's be honest, Chaos is not a force of harmony or joy, but at least the big 4 are very open about their agenda. They are going to give you vast amounts of power, mutate you, and further their goals by any means necessary. And they believe in progression and evolution.

The HH books just make you realize the Chaos Legions aren't raving lunatics. They were denied the truths of the universe by the Emperor so when Erebus came along and exposed the lie they rebelled. All for various different reasons. It wasn't just to cause murder and mayhem, it was to undo the empire they had been tricked into building and elevate the one they felt worthy to lead mankind into a new age for the betterment of humanity. Horus. It also shows that the primarchs weren't just automatons. They had feelings, motivations, and personalities. And they also had flaws.

Really, the 40K world is not about good vs evil. Chaos isn't evil. It just simply is. It's like a hungry animal. It does what it has to in order to survive. You can't call a lion evil because it eats a gazel. The Imperium isn't good. It brings slavery, misery, and pain then calls it protection and unity. Really, it's about the choice between two lesser evils. There are no protagonists or antagonists. It totally depends on where you are in the 40K universe. Neither the Imperium or Chaos is gonna let you leave after you join them. Both demand utter loyalty.

To the Eldar humanity as a whole is evil. To the Tau humanity is evil. To humanity those 2 species are evil. Goodness and evil are totally defined by the beholder.
Im in agreement for the most part.



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Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
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Last edited by Child-of-the-Emperor; 11-07-10 at 07:07 PM.
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post #28 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 05:29 AM
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the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too.
obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.

if you read bloodpact then you get more of a sense of the forces of chaos not being mindless deviants and are just actually following their own beliefs and culture even if it is chaos they worship. when you look at the essence of each chaos god then its nothing that doesnt come natural to man in one way or the other so following them can nearly been seen as normal.
Mankind closest to the essence of chaos? What about the Dark Eldar, they fell to chaos before Mankind even existed.
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post #29 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 06:48 AM
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If anything they are much more free now than they were under the yolk of the Emperor.
Only if by "free" you mean "free to do whatever debased thing your God orders". Being one of the Emperor's warlords is a voluntary and reversible condition. You can quit and leave for parts unknown any time you want, being hunted down for it notwithstanding.

As a Daemon Prince you can't have your body back, it was destroyed when you made the one-way trip to Daemon Prince. You can't have a new body either. Daemons can only possess bodies not join with them the way human souls do, and even if you could how does a Daemon Prince remove the stain of Chaos from its spirit so the body it's being born into doesn't instantly turn to slime in the mother's womb? So you're stuck eternally in the warp with a boss who can strip you of your essence any time it wants, and your mind may not even be your own because who knows what mental programming was added when you were elevated. That's a far more complete form of slavery than any mortal could dream up.
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post #30 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-08-10, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Souleater1806 View Post
Mankind closest to the essence of chaos? What about the Dark Eldar, they fell to chaos before Mankind even existed.
they are closest to the essence of slaanesh seeing as they created it from their own actions.
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