Will the HH series change the current view of chaos legions - Page 2 - Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums
40k Fluff Discuss GW background material here. All those bits in the Codex that aren't stat blocks or special rules. Post your custom character/chapter/army background in our Homebrew Fluff subforum!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 50 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 07:01 PM
Deathwing Commissar
 
Phoebus's Avatar
Phoebus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wandering...
Posts: 1,846
Reputation: 23
Default

Unknown Primarch,

There's certainly more information to be had about the Emperor's designs, but I think there's enough out there to indicate that the Traitor Primarchs were at best misguided and at worst outright evil.

The Emperor's grand scheme centered on bringing Humanity under a single power while simultaneously suppressing the fundamental truth behind the workings of the universe. He absolutely needed to deny Chaos its greatest psychic fodder, and the "moral imperative" of protecting Humanity from the predations of the Warp (given the precedent of the Age of Strife) justified (in his eyes) the means by which he would do so. Those means, of course, included total war, the extinguishing of entire planets, and a totalitarian rule that on the one hand created vast and wondrous works... and on the other brutally suppressed freedom.

Ultimately, one must remember this. However flawed the Emperor, however brutal in his drive to save Mankind, the Ruinous Powers are even worse. Lorgar can in no way justify his schemes and actions following the rebuke he received from the Emperor. Rebellion? Sure. A ploy to brainwash, corrupt, and/or blackmail his fellow Primarchs into falling in line with gods with no love for Man? No excuse.

Cheers,
P.
Phoebus is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 50 (permalink) Old 10-30-10, 11:03 PM
Senior Member
 
Unknown Primarch's Avatar
Unknown Primarch's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Emperor's Throne Room
Posts: 745
Reputation: 1
Default

i think you may have not read into my comment properly mate.

i was trying to point out that who is to say chaos isnt the way forward. you are looking at it from the point of view of a man but why cant chaos be the true path.
it seems to have a lot of power, maybe the most power out of any entity in 40k, seems to be able to influence not just man but everything in the 40k galaxy down to a cellular level. the out come isnt pretty but it just depends on how you look at it.
the csm have a total different outlook on the galaxy then when they were loyal to terra and from their actions seem to got what chaos promised them (power) even if they didnt complete the mission of ending the imperium (which might be what the powers wanted so probably not so bothered about anyway) so chaos hasnt just used them and spat them out like you might expect from failiars.
now you may try and say look what they do to their followers but its all that dissimilar to what the imperium does, defo not as bad but its not like the imperium is a utopia anyway. the imperium wouldnt think twice about ending planets if they thought it was the correct course of action and so would chaos.

so hit on my point again it just depends on how you look on it. obviously some of the emperors forces got pissed at him for one thing or another and decided to turn against his plans but the emperor didnt seem able to stop any of this so if he is all that then why not take his warpself into the heart of each chaos gods domain and end it once and for all. the answer that comes to my mind is chaos is so ingrained into everything in the galaxy (possibly universe) that whos to say it isnt the true way for all exsistence, at least its not the c'tan way which is total eradication of all life at the quickest possible speed.
Unknown Primarch is offline  
post #13 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-06-10, 05:35 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
MuSigma's Avatar
MuSigma's Flag is: England
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Manchester England
Posts: 203
Reputation: 1
Before the HH series it was easy to judge the fallen Primarchs and their Legions as inherently currupt and willing to fall to chaos. Now Im not sure. As we get more insight into the Primarchs like Lorgar and Magnus and Alpharius they dont seem to be mindless savages driven mad by war and bloodshed.

Therefore using what is being written now in the HH series can that be projected into the 40k arena.

Ok ill come out with it instead of beating about the bush, I want to see regret. I want to see one of the chaos primarchs retain some of the virtues they had prior to the fall. I want to see Magnus working on a way to free his legion from chaos in secret - to hate the chaos gods and work tirelessly to still overcome them, to be beyond his hatred for Russ (who he keeps in a cage by his throne). To seek redemption in some way, to deeply regret becoming a pawn of the dark gods and to still be able to grow in knowledge and power to help mankind over throw them.
MuSigma is offline  
 
post #14 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 12:50 AM
Senior Member
 
gothik's Avatar
gothik's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Folkestone Kent UK
Posts: 2,172
Reputation: 22
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuSigma View Post
Before the HH series it was easy to judge the fallen Primarchs and their Legions as inherently currupt and willing to fall to chaos. Now Im not sure. As we get more insight into the Primarchs like Lorgar and Magnus and Alpharius they dont seem to be mindless savages driven mad by war and bloodshed.

Therefore using what is being written now in the HH series can that be projected into the 40k arena.

Ok ill come out with it instead of beating about the bush, I want to see regret. I want to see one of the chaos primarchs retain some of the virtues they had prior to the fall. I want to see Magnus working on a way to free his legion from chaos in secret - to hate the chaos gods and work tirelessly to still overcome them, to be beyond his hatred for Russ (who he keeps in a cage by his throne). To seek redemption in some way, to deeply regret becoming a pawn of the dark gods and to still be able to grow in knowledge and power to help mankind over throw them.
well put MuSigma, well put indeed. i think each of the fallen primarchs as we have seen so far have thier tragedy and here's my opinion.

Horus already felt betrayed by his father, believing that his father had turned his back not only on the brothers but on him, by not confiding in him the reason for his returning to terra and leaving the running of the imperium in the hands of tax collectors and the like, and the burden of running the great crusade on his shoulders as he was the warmaster. That led to his fall, chaos (with a little help from Erebus) managed to tap into this and fuel his - i suppose the word would be abandonment at the hands of his father, fuel this into making him believe that his father wanted to attain divinity, something that Horus and the other leigons have exterminated worlds and races for when his father has decreed that there shall be no gods.

Fulgrim, guess thats easy enough, they say a pride comes before a fall, however Fulgrim seemed to me to always be looking to Horus and Sanguinus, the two eldest(?) for aceptance that what he and his sons were doing were right. when he was told that a man he idolsied and hero worshiped, a man who's very name was the name of his own leigon and who had allowed only them to bear his standard on thier armour must have been a blow, not just to his pride but to how he saw the universe, and he was already under the sway increassngly of the demon that possessed the sword so when he killed Ferrus and came out of his somewhat strange fog, saw that he had killed the one brother that he shared a close bond with perhapes closer then Horus, he gave the demon the doorway he wanted, by saying he wanted to end it all he gave the demon of Slaanesh everything he wanted, a primarchs body that he could mold to whatever he wanted and a legion that he could pervert.

Lorgar was like all that had his faith questioned then betrayed, his father had allowed him to crusade for two hundred years or so and build temples in his name and worlds that worshipped him as a god only to be humilated not just before his own sons, but his brother and his brothers leigon.
like all those of a strong faith Lorgar sought answers from elsewhere and those answers came in the form of chaos and thus the downfall of his legion in that they found a new faith. This can happen when everything you believe in is suddenly shaken to the core in a cold and heartless way, i think i posted on another thread that had Gulliman been a brother to him then he would have asked his father and the Sigilite to take the matter somewhere private and not destroy a world that whilst in worship of the Emperor and his son Lorgar was basically an ideal world for the Imperium. Kor Phaeron and Erebus were also steering a Primarch who was not a warrior but a man of faith and a peacemaker, of philosophy into damnation and in his blind faith that is what he became...blind to the demands of Chaos and tricked by their words that he and he alone was the first son of Chaos, to a man of such deep religous virtues as Lorgar that is like giing him the keys to paradise.

Angron...i am not too sure about as he has been seen only intermidantly but i would feel for Angron because as a man of honour he felt his father had betrayed him, by teleporting him away from those he considered his brothers and sisters, his former gladiator family and leaving them to die what i have no doubt is a horrible death he was made to feel like a coward.
something no one can actually call one such as Angron. It took Kharn to have the balls enough to prove to him that he was worthy and Angron took a great deal of pride in his sons, although he used cybernetic implants to try and enhance thier rage or something please correct me if i am wrong. Angron could never trust the emperor again after being taken from those he called family who he had fought alongside and bled alongside, to him the Emperor had no honour and for such a driven man to whom honour was everything it was easy to turn to someting that in his eyes had honour.

Kurze, Kurze was plagued not only by visions all his life butvisions ofhis own death. The Empeor said he wold help him but as time went on Kurze believed that all he had done, all the so called exaggerated ofences of the Night Lords were in excess, had been by his fathers command, his father had sent them in to deal with a world that would not tow the line as it were and nowhe was being penilised for doing what he had been ordered to do, add to that, when he confided in Fulgrim about his prophetic visons, Fulgrim betrayed him. His father had tried to kill him on numerous ocasions He was the only Primach, aside from Angron i susupect that had no family, no surrogate mother or father and so it came as no surprise to him that his bloodfamily was not accepting of him totally either but that did not say he did not try, he was doing as his father ordered, being a loyal son but in the end having a father turn round, order your assasination and condemn your sons was enough and Kurze reverted back to being what he had been on Nostramo Quintus, the night haunter a man that is truely alone who could never count on his fathers love.

Magnus i believe is perhapes the most tragic, in bringing a warning to his father of Horus and his ultimate betrayal, by trying to do the one thing he could to save his sons from the flesh change, is the reason why he fell. He brings a warning to his father who isn't interested in expliantions and who unleashes the Wolves and sets brother against brother and Magnus into the waiting arms of the weaver of fate. Leman wanted to destroy Magnus the hatred betwen them both was known so the emperor must have known that by unleashing the wolves there could be only one outcome and in this Magnus not only feels betrayed by those around him but also he feels a great guilt in what has befallen his sons, and that he and he alone is responsible for thier fate, betrayed by his father or not.

Alpharius i am unclear on except that he and his brother did what they did in service for the emperor whether that is still true today or not i have no idea.

Morarion i am not yet clear on except that he was betrayed by his own sons especailly Typhus, the Herald himself and that must be one heck of a bitter pill to swallow.

sorry for the ramble
gothik is offline  
post #15 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 02:07 AM
The Emperor Protects
 
Angel of Blood's Avatar
Angel of Blood's Flag is: Wales
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 5,262
Reputation: 41
Default

Well Mortarion was always a bit miffed at the big cheese for killing the Tyrant of Barbarus when he wanted to kill him.
Angel of Blood is offline  
post #16 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 06:41 AM
Deathwing Commissar
 
Phoebus's Avatar
Phoebus's Flag is: USA
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Wandering...
Posts: 1,846
Reputation: 23
Default

Unknown Primarch,

I got your point... I just don't agree with it. ;)

Chaos is certainly powerful, but I wouldn't say it's the way forward. The powers of the Warp are too fickle, treacherous, and undependable to be relied upon.

Sure, they bestowed immortality to the Traitor Legionnaires--but only after a fashion. They remain immortal as long as they reside in a realm of insanity, which brings with it unwanted mutation. The World Eaters were driven to extremes of aggressive insanity, and it can be argued that the Emperor's Children were as well. Mortarion certainly didn't plan for his Death Guard to become plague carriers. And Ahriman, whatever his self-conciliatory notions, definitely didn't plan on turning 90% of his vulnerable brothers to mindless automata.

With the Emperor, the tyranny and oppression of the Imperium (traits that were by no means universal) had a point: preventing the collapse and horrors of the Age of Strife (which, by the way, was due to Chaos) from occurring again. By contrast, the scale of suffering and insanity that Chaos espouses is aimed only at the pleasure of the so-called Ruinous Powers and the furtherment of their own might.

Chaos, ultimately, isn't a way forward for Humanity. It's a lateral progression toward corruption and/or insanity. The Imperium hasn't moved forward in ten millennia largely precisely because of a reverse of everything the Emperor espoused--they have mystified his person, espoused the religious and supernatural, and attached ritualization to virtually every facet of Humanity's existence. By contrast, have the Ruinous Powers allowed the Chaos Space Marines to make any great advances? Not really, excepting larger and more extravagant means of killing ever-greater numbers of (largely) innocent people.

Nothing about the Emperor indicated a "things as they have always been" agenda, though. Brutal, unrelenting, possessed of insufferable amounts of self righteousness, it still aimed at justifying those sins by freeing Humanity of the zero-sum game that Chaos had forced upon it (and other sentient species) for thirty thousand years.

Cheers,
P.

EDIT (some spoilers below):

Furthermore, I don't believe any of the Traitor Primarchs were "cheated" or betrayed. I think the Emperor himself might have erred by not trusting them with certain aspects of knowledge, but this hardly amounts to valid reasoning on their part. Rather, I believe it was other forces at play that corrupted them... and made it easier for the bitter pill of "betrayal" to be swallowed and be made plausible in their eyes.

Horus - Whatever issues he had with the Emperor, ultimately he needed to be wounded, poisoned, exposed to Chaotic rituals, and then fed visions of a future he would unknowingly bring about in order to convince him of his father's "megalomania/envy".

Alpharius - As seen in "Legion", the Primarch of the XX Legion did not turn against the Emperor out of hate, resentment, etc.

Angron - Already dangerously insane and violent, he himself was led to Khorne's cult by Horus. "After Desh'ea" pretty much absolves the Emperor of the theories of betrayal wherein Angron wails about his warriors being left to die.

Fulgrim - Would need to be brainwashed by a daemonic weapon for an extensive period of time. Even then, when confronted with the magnitude of his actions, it wasn't enough. It's not really Fulgrim that leads the Emperor's Children, now, is it?

Magnus the Red - Never wanted to be an agent of Chaos. In fact for all his knowledge and sorcerous might, he proved to be grossly ignorant of the actual gods of Chaos. He only turned after Horus changed the Emperor's orders to Leman Russ, which led to Prospero being decimated by the Space Wolves.

Mortarion - An intriguing case. We haven't actually seen the reasons for his fall yet. Hopefully, a "prequel" Death Guard novel will explain this further.

Night Haunter - Another dangerous sociopath, but his is a more interesting case. Here's a question: if the Haunter's chief complaint toward the Emperor was that he rebuked him from not stopping his excesses (which the Haunter claims were authorized), what does that say about the Haunter himself? If the Haunter was even remotely decent, being told to cease his actions should have come as a relief. Instead, he comes off as a wounded child, made angry because his father has finally told him he can't abuse and terrorize the other kids.

Perturabo - Probably the least sympathetic of the Primarchs, in my opinion. His "burden to bear" is basically having to do what had led to Guiliman and his Ultramarines being so hugely successful. The reason he couldn't do it might be due to his implied inability to trust anyone from as early as his childhood in Olympia (which might be a hint of even greater problems).

... and thus we come down to Lorgar.

It's not coincidental that Lorgar had the strongest case for "Primarch who turned because he was wronged by the Emperor"... he also happens to be the original rebel and the instigator of the entire Heresy. Lorgar's chief complaint is that he is not allowed to exercise his faith.

I am actually willing to give this one to him. Of all the Emperor's failings, his greatest one seems to be his inability to relate to the Human Element on a micro level. By that, I mean that he is an excellent organizer, strategist, etc... but everything he does is on the macro level. He works on the scale of billions or trillions, not the individual. He orchestrates social and cultural changes that affect entire planets at a time, but cannot operate where an individual's emotions are concerned. He is aware of such concepts, hence his use of "Father and Son" themes, but he is ultimately unable to execute them properly. He doesn't ever actually say "Son, I love you." He projects enough psychic force to overwhelm that person into feeling it. He doesn't ever sit down and explain why his son was wrong; he projects enough psychic force to make his anger/disappointment/resentment felt.

Maybe the Emperor is just so inhuman that his logic approaches that of a computer. To him, the statistical cost of Lorgar--a being of tremendous faith and religious zeal evern before being found--being told of the menace and danger of Chaos perhaps outweighed the statistical benefit of him receiving enough clarity to make an informed decision of loyalty toward his father. I don't know.



Without Lorgar, the Heresy doesn't happen. At best, he gets Angron (insane), Fulgrim (brainwashing via daemon weapon), Magnus (assuming Tzeentch throws his weight in), Night Haunter (maybe, it all depends) and Perturabo (depending on how much you buy the theory that Horus gave him a brainwashing weapon).

That's eight, instead of nine, Traitor Legions--at best--and that's assuming that Horus' charisma, which was cited as key for the Heresy to happen, wouldn't force any of them to change their mind.

OK, ramble over!

Last edited by Phoebus; 11-07-10 at 07:14 AM.
Phoebus is offline  
post #17 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 07:32 AM
Senior Member
 
space cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 361
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Primarch View Post
i think you may have not read into my comment properly mate.

i was trying to point out that who is to say chaos isnt the way forward. you are looking at it from the point of view of a man but why cant chaos be the true path.
it seems to have a lot of power, maybe the most power out of any entity in 40k, seems to be able to influence not just man but everything in the 40k galaxy down to a cellular level. the out come isnt pretty but it just depends on how you look at it.
the csm have a total different outlook on the galaxy then when they were loyal to terra and from their actions seem to got what chaos promised them (power) even if they didnt complete the mission of ending the imperium (which might be what the powers wanted so probably not so bothered about anyway) so chaos hasnt just used them and spat them out like you might expect from failiars.
now you may try and say look what they do to their followers but its all that dissimilar to what the imperium does, defo not as bad but its not like the imperium is a utopia anyway. the imperium wouldnt think twice about ending planets if they thought it was the correct course of action and so would chaos.

so hit on my point again it just depends on how you look on it. obviously some of the emperors forces got pissed at him for one thing or another and decided to turn against his plans but the emperor didnt seem able to stop any of this so if he is all that then why not take his warpself into the heart of each chaos gods domain and end it once and for all. the answer that comes to my mind is chaos is so ingrained into everything in the galaxy (possibly universe) that whos to say it isnt the true way for all exsistence, at least its not the c'tan way which is total eradication of all life at the quickest possible speed.
Actually it isn't how you look at it. Being a fictional work, there is no ambiguity. The creator of the universe within which all of the authors write clearly states that The Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys (although oftentimes anti-heroic in the same way the Punisher is an anti-heroic good guy) and the Chaos powers and followers are the bad guys (sometimes in the way that zombies in zombie movies are bad guys, other times in the same way that Michael Corleone is a bad guy.)

Just because writers write a sympathetic bad guy, or a bad guy with seemingly quality motivations doesn't make the bad guy a good guy. He is still the bad guy, just an empathetic one. England wasn't the bad guy from everyone's perspective in their conflicts with the Scots, but were they ever the bad guys for the film Braveheart. This is the same idea. Just because someone might perceive the actions of the antagonist as good doesn't make them the protagonist; they are still the antagonist.

In fact, we should really always be referring to the sides in the 40k universe as Protagonist and Antagonist, since there are, in fact, so many sides. However, while some fictional works portray the non-Imperium factions as the protagonist, the majority of works, and the point of view of the Imperium is clearly the protagonistic point of view for the 40k universe.

TL;DR version: Chaos is one of many antagonists which, in drastically simplified terms, means the bad guy.

A baby seal walked into a club.
space cowboy is offline  
post #18 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 12:28 PM
Bane of Empires
 
Child-of-the-Emperor's Avatar
Child-of-the-Emperor's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,131
Reputation: 19
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by space cowboy View Post
Actually it isn't how you look at it. Being a fictional work, there is no ambiguity. he creator of the universe within which all of the authors write clearly states that The Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys (although oftentimes anti-heroic in the same way the Punisher is an anti-heroic good guy) and the Chaos powers and followers are the bad guys (sometimes in the way that zombies in zombie movies are bad guys, other times in the same way that Michael Corleone is a bad guy.)
I don't agree with that at all. 40k is all about ambiguity and personal interpretation, it's always been that way. If an individual interprets the setting as the Emperor being a mindless tyrant and Chaos being a worthwhile elemental force then thats their interpretation, and it's no less correct than yours or mine.

Often the Emperor may be portrayed as the 'good guy' but that's merely because most codicies and BL novels are from an Imperial point of view, it doesn't universally make it the case.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cegorach View Post
I do love how we don't even need CotE to comment anymore, chances are he has already said something intelligent before that can be re-applied to the current situation.
Heresy's Background FAQ. (Fluff Project)
CotE Reviews: Prospero Burns (HH Review), Age of Darkness (HH Review).
Child-of-the-Emperor is offline  
post #19 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 03:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Unknown Primarch's Avatar
Unknown Primarch's Flag is: United Kingdom
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Emperor's Throne Room
Posts: 745
Reputation: 1
Default

the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too.
obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.

if you read bloodpact then you get more of a sense of the forces of chaos not being mindless deviants and are just actually following their own beliefs and culture even if it is chaos they worship. when you look at the essence of each chaos god then its nothing that doesnt come natural to man in one way or the other so following them can nearly been seen as normal.
Unknown Primarch is offline  
post #20 of 50 (permalink) Old 11-07-10, 04:58 PM
Senior Member
 
space cowboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 361
Reputation: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unknown Primarch View Post
the way people look at 40k and the imperials being good guys then thats why its seen as they are but if we were eldar or tau we would think we are the good guys too.
obviously mankind, eldar and tau are what could be classed as the good guys but they still do stuff that isnt good and out of those 3 races id say mankind is the worst and naturally closest to the essence of chaos. and seeing as most chaos forces are actually mankind then it just bores down to the perspective you look at things.
I really don't have any issue with anything except for the last bit. The base setting, to a neutral observer with no particular rooting interest would classify the Imperium as the 'main character' protagonist with everyone except possibly Eldar and Tau as antagonists and those other two as anti-heroes (while sometimes doing good things, they do oppose the protagonist at times and have methods of which the protagonist would disapprove.)

A baby seal walked into a club.
space cowboy is offline  
Reply

  Lower Navigation
Go Back   Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums > Warhammer 40K > 40k Fluff

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Wargaming Forum and Wargamer Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome