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post #21 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:05 PM
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Fine i give up, you've proved a point, Abaddon really is just infinitly boring to me now, what's the point in a villain who is for all intents and purposes immortal, can smash down gates, nigh on wipe out chapters. Fuck him, 30k abbadon may have been interesting, but he currently to me is possibly the most boring character in 40k.

So in other words, long answer to the OP? read the thread, short answer, no, primarch banishing, avatar slaying, bloodthirster arsekickers and the like are no match for him, and i dearly wish i was being sarcastic in that statement, unfortunately i'm not
. Pretty true. For game purposes I imagine that GW could have some weird intervention where Abaddon somehow gets weak so they can sell some of the other legions stuff. Probably for the sakes of increasing sales by making new codexs and models. Could see this happening. They would probably do this because you are right in the way that black legion and Abaddon has dominated the chaos fan base and maybe getting a bit boring.

As to how they could weaken him... BL has done some redicolous things. Similar to the Ultramarine pwning, they could have one of the characters owning him in some redicolous fashion. , like Loken comming out of the heavens and borrowing the "Shard of Erebus."
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post #22 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:05 PM
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Talos and Honsou do not speak for the entirety of their legions, this much is true, but you can see that these legions have their own agenda as well. For example, The Night lords as an entire legion in their persuit of the recording of their lost primarch went searching for it.
But they are hardly united, and many warleaders of the Night Lords were fighting for Abaddon in his 13th Crusade.

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The Iron Warriors have paid Abaddon in captured geneseed to remain silent (for the most part) in Abaddon's crusade.
And yet we have mentions of them fighting in Abaddon's Black Crusade in some fairly notable actions if I recall my Eye of Terror codex correctly.

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Not to mention Talos has great influence in his legion.
Not as much as you imply. Talos is not the only prophet and not the only one of the Night Haunter's favoured. The fact that he is apart of a dwindling company serving another at the start of Soul Hunter speaks of just exactly what his influence is.

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This much is true as well, though as I said this crusade must prevail in order to maintain their support.
Which, appearantly, going by the chaos codex Abaddon has done so.

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It seems that the chaos astartes are mastly outnumbered. All they really have is warbands of the first legions and I could only find a few renegade chapters comparbily to the amount of loyalist chapters fighting against them. Who is to say they are at full strength too. The violaters have lost over a third of their chapter of which they will probably never know what has happened to them. The Night Lords for example are suffering from lost numbers and loss of equipment like astartes armor. I can only imagine these rengade chapters and warbands are suffering from the same problems. Theres a point where they will have to look to their well being of their warbands before Abaddon's crusade.
According to Dark Creed the Black Legion outnumbers the Word Bearers 10-1. Only 9,000 Word Bearers showed up in the book, a small part of the WB Legion itself. The Black Legion alone must number 90,000 at the very least.

And Chaos Marines still grow and recruit the old-fasioned way, using geneseed that is not corrupted or loyalist geneseed. The Chaos Codex claims that the strength of the Black Legion grows with every assault Abaddon leads and implies that Abaddon is growing, not getting weaker.

But we don't know how many Chaos Marines are out there still. It depends how big you consider the Legions Pre-Heresy, wheter 10,000 Astartes (Index Astartes) or Visions of War (100,000 as average)

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. Pretty true. For game purposes I imagine that GW could have some weird intervention where Abaddon somehow gets weak so they can sell some of the other legions stuff. Probably for the sakes of increasing sales by making new codexs and models. Could see this happening. They would probably do this because you are right in the way that black legion and Abaddon has dominated the chaos fan base and maybe getting a bit boring.

As to how they could weaken him... BL has done some redicolous things. Similar to the Ultramarine pwning, they could have one of the characters owning him in some redicolous fashion. , like Loken comming out of the heavens and borrowing the "Shard of Erebus."
Other way around actually. What Games Workshop needs to do is buff Abaddon more. (I see more Word Bearers and Iron Warrior armeis than I do Black Legion actually. I'm the only one in my area who plays a Black Legion army. Stuff like Iron Warriors and the Cult Leigons are more popular.)

True or not Abaddon is a ''failure'', or at least has the sterotype. The sterotype is so prevelant it's actually been put in stuff like Black Library with Honsou and Talos. Most people will consider him a failure, even if that's not true. Look at 4chan or Tv Tropes.

Most of Abaddon's Crusades are shrouded in mystery, but we rarely get to see a victory that shows us why he is considered the Warmaster of Chaos. By all means, don't go like Ward did with Calgar. But rather I would like to see GW write up a number of battles for Abbadon to win in order to dispel that sterotyped image of a failure.

Last edited by Gree; 10-12-10 at 07:14 PM.
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post #23 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:20 PM
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Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he? you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype? its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful. Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo
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post #24 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:23 PM
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Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he?
No, I mean giving him some sort solid victories.

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you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype?
Because he is a susposed ''failure'' at not destroying the Imperium of Man? That's what I've seen on pretty much every forum ever.

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its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful.
Funny, most of the complaints I here are about his tactical abiltities. I rarely, if ever hear complaints of him being too powerful.

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Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo
Well appearantly, going by his reputation among players in the fan community he is certainly not all powerful. If he were truely all powerful as you say then he would have destroyed the Imperium dozens of times over.

Abaddon's powerful, but GW does't really focus on that much and that leaves the whole meme that Abaddon is a failure.

Last edited by Gree; 10-12-10 at 08:33 PM.
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post #25 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:23 PM
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Buffing Abbadon up? you mean make him more immortal and powerful than he already apparently he? you know why he's unpopular to some, and such a stereotype? its because of the exact reason that he is so powerful. Almost nothing in literature is more boring than an all powerful one dimensional character who is for all intents and purposes immortal. Buffing him up any more would be the worst decision they could make imo
No, not buffening him, merely distributing the popularity and maybe in BL terms "power" of Abbadon and his black legion throughout the chaos legions.
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post #26 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:26 PM
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No, not buffening him, merely distributing the popularity and maybe in BL terms "power" of Abbadon and his black legion throughout the chaos legions.
Popularity? Are you talking about in-story or in real life? Because as I've told you, I've seen far more Iron Warriors and Cult Legions than BL online and on TT. Codexwise the only Black Legion character is Abaddon himself.

Storywise the popularity of the Black Legion is why Abaddon's the Warmaster. It's one of the few things that are clear enough in the fluff that Black Legion players like me can point out and say ''That's why 's Warmaster of Chaos.''. It's not like the Ultramarines Codex were you have a subtle sense of condescation in Ward's prose. The Chaos Codex does not say or even imply that the Black Legion is nessecarily better than other Legions. You don't need to distribute power when it takes away from the BL's niche, being the lynchpin of the Chaos Legions.

Again, storywise Abaddon is the Waraster of Chaos. If he were not incredibly blessed and physcially powerful then why would he be the most powerful Chaos Lord? Taking him down a notch will only renforce the idea that Abaddon is a ''failure''. What you need to do is reinvent him.

Last edited by Gree; 10-12-10 at 07:34 PM.
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post #27 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 07:56 PM
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If your going to quote someone at least look at what your quoting. I distinctly said "unpopular to some" which doesn't mean most. Yes most laugh at his apparent fail record, but i said some, because to some, ie. now me, i think having a all powerful character is boring as hell. If you look back over this thread you will see examples others of given of him making pretty solid victories, don't reply on bitching fan groups(fuck, you can include me in this category to some regard) on what a character is actually like
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post #28 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 08:26 PM
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If your going to quote someone at least look at what your quoting. I distinctly said "unpopular to some" which doesn't mean most. Yes most laugh at his apparent fail record, but i said some, because to some, ie. now me, i think having a all powerful character is boring as hell. If you look back over this thread you will see examples others of given of him making pretty solid victories, don't reply on bitching fan groups(fuck, you can include me in this category to some regard) on what a character is actually like
I choose to reply to whomever I wish. As long as I follow the rules you have little say in the matter I'm afriad. You may consider him to be ''overpowered'' (Although you seemed to be in the later camp until recently. It's a rather sharp 180 to be honest. I've beleive I already stated a couple of time show he is not invincible) but unfourtunately a character's greater image usually follows through imo. I've already pointed out he is not all powerful, merely powerful, you choose to ignore that seemingly.

Last edited by Gree; 10-12-10 at 08:33 PM.
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post #29 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 08:35 PM
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I choose to reply to whomever I wish. As long as I follow the rules you have little say in the matter I'm afriad.
That makes little sense to what i said.

And no, i always knew Abaddon was powerful, still consider his Black Crusades to be fails as far as his ultimate goal goes or in a large scale, but i always knew he was powerful, recent posts have shown him to be horendously overpowered however, not exactly a 180 at all
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post #30 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-12-10, 08:44 PM
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That makes little sense to what i said.
Maybe you should be a bit more clearer for me?

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And no, i always knew Abaddon was powerful, still consider his Black Crusades to be fails as far as his ultimate goal goes or in a large scale,
Are you privy to Abaddon's battle plans or objectives?

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but i always knew he was powerful, recent posts have shown him to be horendously overpowered however, not exactly a 180 at all
How have my recent posts shown him to be overpowered? Drach-nyen is a highly potent weapon certainly, but Abaddon is hardly invincible. He's no primarch for certain.
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