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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-26-10, 09:46 PM
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Id imagine 40k SMs to be the better soldiers. Their faith in the emperor provides them with immense inner strength. Also as has been said the 30k marines seem a lot more human, to me this isnt a great trait in combat the 40k lot have much more discipline and are more like weapons than the 30k bunch
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-26-10, 09:50 PM
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This is a tough one. When you compare them, the 40k marines are taken in and trained from their early teens, with probably a far more advanced training regime over a longer period, but 30k marines were already battle hardened veterans of the Unification Wars before they underwent the transformation, with only the very toughest of them surviving, so all it did was refine them in to even more efficient killing machines.

I think the point about the 30k's being more independent and free thinking is a good one. The codex is extremely restricting, actively discouraging thinking outside the box (Uriel Ventris anyone?), so I think they may have been quicker to respond to a tactical situation, or find it easier to adapt.

There might also be an issue with the fact that in 30k the geneseed was still fresh and shiney, and may have been diluted, or worn down somewhat in the following 10 millennia. In BL fiction there seems to be a theme of the HH traitor marines thinking of 40k marines as smaller, paler imitations of the originals. While ingrained arrogance and exposure to the warp and it's corrupting, enhancing influence probably plays a part in this, maybe there is a grain of truth in it. We know there is something to this in the fact that many chapters have seen particular implants slowly fade or stop working completely.

I have to say, I think it might work out a draw, with the 30k boys having all of the above, but the 40k's have the more modern marks of armour and weaponry.

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Originally Posted by SnoopyChicken View Post
Id imagine 40k SMs to be the better soldiers. Their faith in the emperor provides them with immense inner strength.
The 30k marines also had great faith in the Emperor as their creator and gene father, and drew strength from his vision for humanity. They just didn't see him as a god.

Last edited by Khorne's Fist; 09-26-10 at 09:57 PM.
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-26-10, 10:45 PM
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Agreed, the 40k marines may get inner strength from the god-emperor, but the 30k marines got the exact same inner strength from both the living, fighting, breathing Emperor and their Primarchs. The 30k marines were also not all old already at time of transformation. A vast majority of them were still teenagers just like in 40k, the Space Wolves 13th company being an exception to this. Luther and some other Dark Angels simply weren't turned. The majority of the marines were still the same age as 40k ones are, the terran ones probably being even better, having been transformed with fresh gene seed and under by the Emperor himself, if anything i would expect them to be better than 40k marines.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 12:11 AM
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I have a feeling the 30k marines were less selective with their recruits than the 40k ones.

Crusading armies were constantly at a war footing. Also they were generally limited to a single recruiting planet like current chapters. Combined with the much larger size of a legion (anywhere from 10,000 to 200,000(?)), you just can't afford to be as picky.

In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."

The codex later goes on to state that the Codex Astartes was designed to identify such weaknesses and expunge them. It says that a Space Marine must be created and trained slowly while also closely monitoring the gene-seed to ensure purity. Furthermore, "only those of the sternest character would be chosen."

There may have been great heroes amongst the Legions during the Crusade, but I'd like to think the average stock has improved in the last 10,000 years.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 12:17 AM
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[QUOTE=hailene;739730]In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
QUOTE]

I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 12:19 AM
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In the codex it mentions, "The Horus Heresy had reveled weaknesses in the gene-seed of Several Space Marine Legions. These defects had been exacerbated by the accelerated gene-seed cultivation techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength."
I think the weakness was less physical and more to do with them turning traitor. Several HH mentions that you either passed or died, during the tests.

Last edited by locustgate; 09-27-10 at 12:22 AM.
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 12:20 AM
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Right after that sentence I quoted it says, "The Chaos powers were able to exploit the resultant physical and mental corruption to turn Horus' troops against the Emperor."

So apparently it was both physical and mental. In short, bad in the complete sense.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 08:50 AM
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Hell Uriel is probably the most human marine I've ever read apart from Loken.
No surprise then that Uriel is considered as rather a maverick, and verging on heretical. He was not a popular choice for company captain.

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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 09:38 AM
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Indeed, it seems the more like a 30k marine you become, the more of an outcast you become. And the 40k gene seed is much much weaker than it is now i thought, some chapters don't even have all the implants anymore as they are lost to them.
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 09-27-10, 03:51 PM
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On the subject of the Codex Astartes, I'd like to say that while in many cases it does dictate a set reaction to a situation, it also encompasses a large number of effective tactica for nearly any battle situation. It also ironed out the loyalty and power balance of the Space Marine forces. The reason a Chapter can no longer simply go to war on its own is the whole point: to prevent another horrible rampage.

The reason I say horrible rampage is because I agree that a company of Space Marines will certainly perform best with support from the Imperial Guard and Navy, a whole Chpater is meant to be an independent body of war. It's been stated in several of the SM codexes that a Chapter has the resources to conquer multiple star systems independently, so I wouldn't quite peg them and Guard-dependent.

Back to the Codex Astartes, not all Chapters follow its precepts to the letter. The Blood Angels successors are more aggressive and reckless than the codex dictates, and the Space Wolves are similar in this regard. The Blood Ravens are also quite at odds with the codex, their Librarians encouraging the Chapter to various acts outside the bounds of the Codex.

I'll have more later, but I'm out of time at the moment

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